Re: France's earliest winery found


"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1184496657.146706.21580@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 15, 3:26 am, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Hayabusa" <peregr...@xxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im
Newsbeitragnews:uikf93h09spvj1pl16qoe5isc3k6p9gn4a@xxxxxxxxxx



On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:53:34 +0200, "Uwe Müller"
<uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

snip >

Are there clues - eg. labels, or characteristic designes, or
decorations - on the amphoras that indicate which trade good was once
inside?

Most of the finds are single pieces or up to about a dozen sherds per
site.
It's simply not enough to judge about forms or functions.



And is it known where the amphorae were made that were found in the
North ? I mean, the petrographic/geochemical data base of the original
clay is constantly improving.

The origin was identified by the clay, the preparation of the clay and
the
technics of firing, in other words by archaeological means. AFAIK no
petrographic analysis was done.

There is a new book out on roman amphorae in German Ulrike Ehmig, Die
römischen Amphoren aus Mainz, 2004. Nearly 5000 amphorae from Mogontiacum
have been analysed, about 400 of them underwent geochemical analysis for
the
origin of the vessels. You'd have to look into that for more info on
origins, distribution etc. AFAIK many vessels that would have been
foreign
by form turned out to be locally made.

have fun

Uwe Mueller

The Laubenheimer papers are not as accurate?

http://books.google.com/books?>id=aXX2UcT_yw8C&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=roman+wi
ne+marseilles+katz&source=web&ots=eqlbJjpYx6&sig=QneH_CB6PezOYJhp00WVvijH9IA
"a virtual monopoly of the French wine trade was achieved by
Marseilles during the 5th and 4th Century BC."

The term 'virtual monopoly' is nice. We know there was an exchange of goods,
but many, including me, would demand convincing evidence before accepting
'trade' as the way they managed the exchange.

If trade was accepted, it would still be the question, if it took the form
of neighbourhood trade or of a long distance trade controlled by one end of
the connection, or anything inbeween the two.

Nothing I have seen suggests any kind of central control reaching across
France to sustain a monopoly. I'd doubt any kind of monopoly for that time.
The case for wine being traded is, afaik, without real evidence. We only
know about containers, metall and ceramics, being passed up North.

Added to that is the question of dating, they seem to address the period
from the defeat of the karthaginian-etruscan fleet till the end of the early
Latène burials.

So how would the evidence for a 'monopoly in the French wine trade ...
during the 5th and 4th c. BC' look like? A handfull of amphorae likely from
Marseille. No point of origin for most of the other non-local ceramics, some
Corinthian and some Athenian black-figure ware. Not very convincing. And
wouldn't we have to assume one trade monopoly for wine, and other
connections for ceramics, metal goods, jewellery, furniture etc. ? That is
just the stuff we know about, what about organic materials, especially raw
silk?

It's a nice assertion, but it omits much of the evidence. It may even have
been copied accurately from other scholarly works. But without evidence I
would not believe it.

have fun

Uwe Mueller


.

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