Re: France's earliest winery found

On Jul 17, 9:22 am, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:1184496657.146706.21580@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 15, 3:26 am, "Uwe Müller" <uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:> "Hayabusa" <peregr...@xxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb im

Newsbeitragnews:uikf93h09spvj1pl16qoe5isc3k6p9gn4a@xxxxxxxxxx





On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:53:34 +0200, "Uwe Müller"
<uwemuel...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

snip >
Are there clues - eg. labels, or characteristic designes, or
decorations - on the amphoras that indicate which trade good was once
inside?

Most of the finds are single pieces or up to about a dozen sherds per
site.
It's simply not enough to judge about forms or functions.

And is it known where the amphorae were made that were found in the
North ? I mean, the petrographic/geochemical data base of the original
clay is constantly improving.

The origin was identified by the clay, the preparation of the clay and
the
technics of firing, in other words by archaeological means. AFAIK no
petrographic analysis was done.

There is a new book out on roman amphorae in German Ulrike Ehmig, Die
römischen Amphoren aus Mainz, 2004. Nearly 5000 amphorae from Mogontiacum
have been analysed, about 400 of them underwent geochemical analysis for
the
origin of the vessels. You'd have to look into that for more info on
origins, distribution etc. AFAIK many vessels that would have been
foreign
by form turned out to be locally made.

have fun

Uwe Mueller

The Laubenheimer papers are not as accurate?

http://books.google.com/books?>id=aXX2UcT_yw8C&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=roman+wi

ne+marseilles+katz&source=web&ots=eqlbJjpYx6&sig=QneH_CB6PezOYJhp00WVvijH9IA

"a virtual monopoly of the French wine trade was achieved by
Marseilles during the 5th and 4th Century BC."

The term 'virtual monopoly' is nice. We know there was an exchange of goods,
but many, including me, would demand convincing evidence before accepting
'trade' as the way they managed the exchange.

If trade was accepted, it would still be the question, if it took the form
of neighbourhood trade or of a long distance trade controlled by one end of
the connection, or anything inbeween the two.

Nothing I have seen suggests any kind of central control reaching across
France to sustain a monopoly. I'd doubt any kind of monopoly for that time.
The case for wine being traded is, afaik, without real evidence. We only
know about containers, metall and ceramics, being passed up North.

Added to that is the question of dating, they seem to address the period
from the defeat of the karthaginian-etruscan fleet till the end of the early
Latène burials.

So how would the evidence for a 'monopoly in the French wine trade ...
during the 5th and 4th c. BC' look like? A handfull of amphorae likely from
Marseille. No point of origin for most of the other non-local ceramics, some
Corinthian and some Athenian black-figure ware. Not very convincing. And
wouldn't we have to assume one trade monopoly for wine, and other
connections for ceramics, metal goods, jewellery, furniture etc. ? That is
just the stuff we know about, what about organic materials, especially raw
silk?

It's a nice assertion, but it omits much of the evidence. It may even have
been copied accurately from other scholarly works. But without evidence I
would not believe it.

have fun

Uwe Mueller

How does 2 million gallons sound like, a local trade? The evidence is
tied into JSTOR and similar publication sources which I will not pay
for. Here is a review of what is considered the most important article
on the subject:

It is estimated that 2.2 million gallons of Greek wine were shipped to
France each year through the port that is now Marseilles.
http://www.answers.com/topic/wine-from-classical-times-to-the-nineteenth-century

"In an article published in the Journal of Anthropological
Archaeology, "Driven by Drink," Michael Dietler, Associate Professor
in Anthropology, argues that the introduction of wine into the
societies of southern France in the seventh century B.C. significantly
changed social and power relations.

So important was the trade in wine to the region that it provided an
impetus for development of the area surrounding the Mediterranean port
of Marseilles, which was founded as a Greek colony about 600 B.C.

Dietler argues that wine became a driving force in the development of
the region because it could be used as a reward for men engaged in
community labor projects and in political rituals of hospitality.

Other scholars have contended that the introduction of wine to the
region was just one facet of a more general process of Hellenization
-- societies throughout the Mediterranean region adopted wine
drinking, along with other aspects of Greek culture, based on their
admiration for the achievements of classical Greek civilization.

In Dietler's view, however, the pleasure and social role of drinking
took precedence over any respect for Greek ways of life when a society
adopted elements of the Greek culture of wine drinking.

Dietler's work on the role of alcoholic beverages in ancient society
has helped establish a new model for the study of prehistoric cultures
that used wine as a form of exchange, and he has shown how this
exchange can help explain the contours of ancient political
structures.

Drinking in ancient France

Dietler's fieldwork is centered in southern France, where he excavates
sites associated with the wine trade in pre-Roman times. Evidence for
the importance of wine shipping is abundant throughout France, where
contemporary farm plows often uncover shards of ancient amphorae used
to transport wine.

Before the arrival of the Greek traders, the people living in the
region around Marseilles drank brews made of fermented grain and
honey. But imported wine from the Etruscans of Italy soon became
popular about a generation before the founding of Marseilles.

"Imported Mediterranean wine was then incorporated into traditional
patterns of feasting and hospitality and used, along with native forms
of drink, to mobilize labor and build prestige," said Dietler.

People did not adopt the Greek methods of drinking wine, however,
which included mixing wine with water. The early people of southern
France preferred to drink their wine unadulterated, and they also
chose to forego the elaborate rituals associated with wine drinking in
Greece.

Imported wine apparently had special appeal because it was less
perishable than the native grain- or honey-based drinks, and it could
be stored and transported easily. As an imported good, it also
conveyed more status than did the indigenous drink. And unlike gold
and other precious metals, which retained value without being
consumed, wine was valuable only when used.

"A ruler could thus augment his prestige, assure the support of a
larger group of warriors or followers, or step up production for trade
or public projects through drink-rewarded [recruited] labor," Dietler
writes in "Driven by Drink."

Wine and systems of power

Dietler also contends that the use of wine reveals the distribution of
power throughout the region. Wine was used in the Marseilles region in
ways that differed markedly from the ways it was used in the north,
for example, in the Hallstatt region, a Celtic area in and around
Burgundy that had a better-defined system of social hierarchy.

Imported drinking vessels used in the northern area were more
elaborate than those used in the south, according to Dietler. Indeed,
one of the most elaborate wine vessels ever discovered from antiquity,
a bronze wine vessel more than five feet tall, was unearthed in the
Burgundy region.

"In hierarchical systems, ritual drinking practices would be valued
mainly for their symbolic functions, and imported drinking gear could
be extremely useful in differentiating elite drinking even where the
supply of exotic drink was meager or irregular," said Dietler.

In less hierarchical societies, such as those around Marseilles,
"exotic drink would be valued more for its use in fulfilling status
obligations of political authority through transfers in the form of
hospitality," he said. For example, wine might be used to reward
laborers in work-party feasts.

The less hierarchical societies thus required a greater abundance of
wine than did societies in which wine use was reserved for the elite.
Conveniently, Marseilles was much easier to reach through the sea
trade routes than was the Hallstatt region, which required a trip up
the Rhone Valley.

A model for prehistoric development

The use of wine in these two contrasting cultures of ancient France,
one more egalitarian than the other, demonstrates how the introduction
of wine transformed the economic and political dynamics of prehistoric
societies, Dietler suggests.

In hierarchical societies, wine became a vehicle to reinforce the
power structure. "There might well be competition among individual
members of the elite group in a community or among leaders of
neighboring groups, in terms of access to trade sources and
manipulation of status display and hospitality," said Dietler. "But
the fundamental internal power arrangements would remain unchanged."

In less centralized societies, the importation of wine could initially
increase the power of men who were already leaders in the community.
However, others could also benefit, and access to wine would then lead
to social competition in which those who could acquire wine could then
mobilize labor for their economic benefit.

It was just this sort of competition for prestige and power among the
people of the lower Rhone Valley that made imported wine such a
socially volatile item. The new entrepreneurs in the prehistoric
society "would be able to host feasts with imported wine and mobilize
labor for production, trade or personal projects without first
building up a resource base in the traditional way," said Dietler.

Dietler observes that this new wealth enabled the entrepreneurs to
trade with other indigenous societies, establish other trade links and
secure the resources needed to engage in the importation of metal
goods and other valuable items that were important in local systems of
prestige and politics.

"Drinking is, obviously, not the only social practice through which
relations of economic and political power in a society are reflected
and manipulated," said Dietler. "However, it is very often an
important element in this domain, and it deserves the serious
consideration in prehistoric contexts that it has won in ethnographic
ones."

-- William Harms
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/960215/dietler.shtml

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Frances earliest winery found
    ... 'trade' as the way they managed the exchange. ... It is estimated that 2.2 million gallons of Greek wine were shipped to ... France each year through the port that is now Marseilles. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Frances earliest winery found
    ... So how would the evidence for a 'monopoly in the French wine trade ... ... France each year through the port that is now Marseilles. ... societies of southern France in the seventh century B.C. significantly ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Frances earliest winery found
    ... Instead you rely on supposed authorities, who support the idea of a wine ... trade, as the kooks do, without any evidence given and without any argument ... If you believe an unknown ship in an unknown location from an unknown time ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Frances earliest winery found
    ... Instead you rely on supposed authorities, who support the idea of a wine ... trade, as the kooks do, without any evidence given and without any argument ... If you believe an unknown ship in an unknown location from an unknown time ...
    (sci.archaeology)