Re: The Origin of the Sea Peoples



On Jul 26, 7:15 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
On Jul 25, 7:34 pm, Samra <minoanatlan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On Jul 25, 6:58 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Jul 25, 6:47 pm, Samra <minoanatlan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jul 25, 4:24 am, "asteropaeus via HistoryKB.com" <u36063@uwe>
wrote:

I tried to calculate speeds ones like you just did. I used 4 km per hour as a
reference, and calculated the length of several coasthopping route. I came up
with times of travelling that were very accurate.......They were allmost
exactly fitting with some reports in the classical era............The ones
that mentioned this travelling times just because they were exceptionally
short due to great weather-conditions!
The rigging of Minoan ships was much less sofisticated as the rigging in
Classical times.....

But..you got me wrong if you think that I do not believe Minoans could make
that trip. That is not what I meant when I said "the problem are the
distances". With that I meant that your theory is somewhat problematic in
economical terms.

You are most probably right, they did not fade away. I was not clear. I meant:
Cretian dominance over traderoutes faded away. (I was a bit tired i suppose)
And with that I was trying to stress that it was a continuous prosses, not an
abrubt one.

Asteropaeus

Samra wrote:
On Jul 24, 8:11 pm, "asteropaeus via HistoryKB.com" <u36063@uwe>
wrote:
I personally think you are wrong, but I think your logic is essencially not
wrong, though.
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]

- Show quoted text -

I well understand why you believe that I am wrong in this and I may
well be. But, when I was about 14 or 15 years old I spent a summer as
a boy scout where about ten of us manned the oars of a large open
wooden boat (a surplus rescue boat from an oceanliner) with a single
square sail. Everyday we had, at least, one assignment and that was to
get to our next location to camp and spend the night (a small deserted
island or site on the mainland). This was the Chesapeake Bay on the
east coast of the US. In the beginning we were slow and didn't know
how to use the sail effectively as a team, but it wasn't long before
we, as a group of young teenagers, mastered the use of the oars and
sail in some very rough and windy conditions. In time we could row the
oars at a steady pace all day long if we needed to with no problem at
all. If we had other people on board (there was plenty of available
space) to let us eat and sleep and take over the working of the oars
and sail that boat could have gone on around the clock for days at a
time until our supplies ran out. No matter how bad things were we
always managed to get from point A to point B without wrecking the
boat. I can only imagine our motivation if the reward of our sailing
assignment of going from point A to Point B was a shipment of gold or
silver.

This is a quote from my article "The Early Minoan Colonization of
Spain":

"Great distances can be traveled by rowing ships primarily powered by
human muscle using a sail as a secondary source of energy if their
average speed is sustained over time. If you assume that such a ship
could maintain an average velocity of eight kilometers per hour, which
is a brisk walking pace for most humans, and maintain it constantly
around the clock by rotating the work at the oars in shifts among the
available men on board, the ship would travel 192 kilometers in 24
hours. The rowing distance between Kommos, Crete and the southeastern
coast of Spain is approximately 2,400 kilometers. This distance would
be traveled in 12.5 days using these parameters. The manpower
requirements of such a ship would be, at least, double the number of
oars to be worked. A ship with 40 oars would probably need to be
manned by something like 100 rowers to maintain a good constant rowing
pace."

With this in mind I don't think in terms of local trade routes. I
think that a bold captain and strong crew of one of those large
cypress ships could have gone anywhere they liked just as many sailing
ships in the Mediterranean Sea do every year in our times. The Minoan
ships were very similar to the much later Viking ships and we now know
how far they went over the oceans.

The Minoans collapsed in the Aegean because of the Theran volcanic
eruption and soon after the war with the Mycenaeans. There was no
fading away. They lived on elsewhere throughout the Mediterranean
including the Aegean islands. The Minoans in Spain maintained
themselves under the control of the Mycenaeans for a time and then had
to fend for themselves without the connection to the Aegean.

There is plenty of evidence in Spain for an early Aegean presence -
architectural, metal working sites, burial remains, grave goods,
Mycenaean pottery, etc. That's archaeologically undeniable. I have
only taken the currently available evidence and attempted to deduce
the most probable scenarios from it. If my evidence is flawed I will
certainly correct and re-evaluate it if I'm shown to be in error.

W. Sheppard Baird

Author - The Minoan Psychopath
http://www.minoanatlantis.com

--
Message posted via HistoryKB.comhttp://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/archaeology/200707/1-Hidequo...-

- Show quoted text -

No problem we all get a bit tired. My take on the rigging you
mentioned is that we are only talking about a single mast and a single
boom. The rigging for a sail in this simple configuration is dictated
by functionally only. I think they were fully able to effectively use
the sail with the rigging they had.

I'm not sure what you mean by my theory being somewhat problematic in
economic terms.

W. Sheppard Baird

Author - The Minoan Psychopathhttp://www.minoanatlantis.com

Take a look at the rigging on the Thera ships in this site. Most are
being ceremoniously paddled, but near the right hand side is a fully
rigged ship under sail.

http://mmtaylor.net/Holiday2000/Legends/Legends_pix/MarineFresco/mari...

http://mmtaylor.net/Holiday2000/Legends/Legends_pix/MarineFresco/mari...quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Excellent photo! The rigging looks about right to me and should have
given them full control of the sail. It's interesting that it is the
only boat without rowers but looks to be carrying a dignitary and some
sort of cargo compartment (?) on board.

W. Sheppard Baird

Author - The Minoan Psychopathhttp://www.minoanatlantis.com

The theory in some of the examinations of the fresco is that it is a
dispatch boat, carrying some important news or perhaps the ceremonial
announcement that 'Admiral H is coming to our city.' I have a half-
size of the original over my work space.

Barry Strauss in his The Trojan War on sources cites Eliezer D. Oren's
The Sea Peoples and Their World: A Reassessment; Seymour Gitlin's
Mediterranean Peoples in Transition: Thirteenth to Early Tenth
Centuries and as a classic N. K. Sandar's The Sea Peoples: Warriors of
the Ancient Mediterranean, 1250-1150 BC.

I haven't read any of them but note that Manuel Robbins in The
Collapse of the Bronze Age estimates the Sea Peoples in the Egyptian
delta fights as about 5000.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I used the same ship procession image to create the heading for my
website. It's a priceless view into the Aegean Minoan world. As far as
the numbers of Sea Peoples attacking Egypt I have the information
about the Battle of Perire in 1208 B.C. from the Great Karnak
Inscription. Below is a quote from my article on the Origin of the Sea
Peoples.

http://www.minoanatlantis.com/Origin_Sea_Peoples.html

"The Lion's Gate and the Treasury (Tholos Tomb) of Atreus were built
shortly before the first large scale destruction of Mycenae by the Sea
Peoples in about 1250 B.C. A few decades later during the reign of
Merenptah (1213 - 1203 B.C.) the Sea People's Nine Bows Confederacy
under the leadership of King Meryey of Libya attacked Egypt's western
Nile delta at the Battle of Perire in 1208 B.C. Their wives, children,
and belongings accompanied the King and his warriors in their march
toward Egypt with the obvious intention of settling permanently in the
delta region. The Great Karnak Inscription tells of the defeat of the
coalition under King Meryey after six hours of fighting. The coalition
included the Libyans, Ekwesh, Teresh, Lukka, Shardana, Shekelesh,
Meshwesh, and Northerners coming from all lands.

The Egyptians describe the Sea Peoples defeat as a slaughter with the
killing or capture of some 9, 376 of them. The majority of these were
Libyans but also included 2,201 Ekwesh, 742 Teresh, and 222 Shekelesh.
The numbers for the other members (Lukka, Shardana, Shekelesh and
Meshwesh) of the coalition are missing. Those killed and captured were
probably only a fraction of the true size of the army because King
Meryey was not captured and returned to Libya. The Egyptians captured
9,111 copper swords, cattle, goats, fine vessels, armor, and a variety
of other weapons. Notably, the swords are described as being made of
copper and not bronze. Also, the Ekwesh are described as being without
foreskins."


W. Sheppard Baird

Author - The Minoan Psychopath
http://www.minoanatlantis.com

.



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