Re: Homo erectus, city dweller and sailor

On Sep 9, 4:02 am, veritas <khogan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 9, 2:18 am, "J.LyonLayden" <JosephLay...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 9, 2:45 am, veritas <khogan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 9, 1:14 am, "J.LyonLayden" <JosephLay...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 8, 10:08 pm, veritas <khogan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 8, 7:30 am, "J.LyonLayden" <JosephLay...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 8, 12:00 am, veritas <khogan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 7, 4:15 pm, Doug Weller <dwel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:23:59 +0200, in sci.archaeology, Hayabusa wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:05:03 -0700, Jack Linthicum
<jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

MINERVA JULY/AUGUST 2007 (VOL 18.4)

MINERVA WORLD EXCLUSIVE A New Palaeolithic Revolution

Jerome M. Eisenberg, Ph.D. and Dr Sean Kingsley

Don't know who Kingsley is, but Jerome M Eisenberg is owner of the
Royal Athena Ancient Art Gallery, an art dealership specializing in
ancient art with shops in New York, London and Beverly Hills. Maybe
the hype in the text is his, after all he is a salesman. I would judge
him as sufficiently knowledgeable in ancient cultures to listen if he
speaks.

Minerva is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal, but a journal of
the international art trade.

It is an extremely odd journal for this to be published in. We need to
wait for something a bit more informative and for other archaeologists to
look at it.

The results have convinced Bednarik that 'Between 400,000
and 200,000 years ago, hominins are also known to have crossed to at
least two islands in Europe, Corsica, and Sardinia. This is soundly
demonstrated, but in addition it is possible that much earlier they
managed to cross the Strait of Gibraltar. Unfortunately, that cannot
be proved conclusively,

HSS reached Corsica and Sardinia around 7000 BCE. I am not aware of
human traces before that, especially not of HSN or his ancestors.

Hayabusa

--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'athttp://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site:http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderatorhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/-Hidequotedtext-

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Here is where I see the differences. Cambridge University says all
modern humans came from a small group in Africa. About 10,000 adult
modern humans. We migrated out of Africa and in 47,000 years went
from flint tools to landing men on the moon. All of these other
species that may or may not be any kin to us had hundreds of thousands
of years and they did nothing. Eat, mate, survive just like the other
animals. We don't, we press forward as hard as we can go. Does not
everyone see we are not them? Something radical happened, what I have
no idea, but as we are no kin to Neanderthal, we may not be kin to
erectus or any of them. DNA studies do not conclude we are. There
are major questions still to be solved. We took over the world in
47,000 years, they couldn't do it ever. Something was different. And
so, on we go. Regards, Ken
--
"Truth does not give a damn what we conceive. We survive or perish
according to our ability to discern the truth correctly and act upon
it." - Ken www.veritasnovel.com-Hidequotedtext-

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I don't see how it's our species that differentiates us. We did
nothing for 130,000 years before he stepped up beyond the other
hominids as far as technology goes, indicating it was a social change
rather than a biological change.

I suspect not that we are different from other Hss, but that Hss and
maybe even Hs had periods of technological advancement too. We either
haven't found the evidence yet, or it got erased by fallout from the
asteroid crash of 160 million ybp that was the cause of the end of the
dinosaurs and is still sending debris towards us today. Or by
something like your Mt. Tobas.

The recent finding of stone huts 500,000 ybp would tend to support
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The problem seems to be that after Mt. Toba there was no one here
other than three to four thousand Neanderthals. Hunter gatherers do

Here is where we must agree to disagree, because there are verified
dates for homo erectus soloensis after Toba:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/274/5294/1870?ijkey=18...

very badly in five to six years of winter. Neanderthals needed no
carbs to live, just protein. All of a sudden 10,000 adult DNA
combinations pop up in North Africa. There was not supposed to be
anyone there and take over the world in 47,000 years. As the DNA

But most archeologists say that there were homo sapiens in africa from
at least 120,000 on up into the present.

Soloensis survived the volcanoe while living right next to it, so I
don't see why african hominids couldn't as well.

studies just published proves. We had no help from anyone, not even
the few Neanderthals. We did things that were unthinkable ever for
any animal that we know has ever lived on this planet. Maybe there
were stone huts 500,000 B.C.E., but that still does not explain the
sudden explosion of our measely 10,000 DNA combinations and what we
have accomplished in the time it took erectus or Neanderthal to add an
extra piece of flint tool to use to their inventory. And for whoever

That's not necessarily true. Neanderthal did exceedingly well for
250,000 years, which is more than we can say. And if stone huts can go
unnoticed, so can other things that we don't yet realize neanderthal
made.

You are dismissing working in perishable items. And they had lots of
advancements. neanderthals developed flutes with finger holes, burying
the dead, etc.

Neanderthal abandoned the mousterian and went to the same kind of
technology that Cro-Magnon was using BEFORE cro-magnon got into his
area, so for all intents and purposes the technology was a social
revolution, not a physiological one. Neanderthals were advancing, and
also show new innovative hunting techniques at this time, not shared
by the cro-magnons.

And neanderthal had a brigger brain with more folds, which indicates
greater intelligence in all other species on earth.

made the remark about the cool caves in Europe the Neanderthals had,
they didn't paint any of that art. That was all done by modern humans,

I know, but the caves themselves were cool. They look like apartment
buildings. Natural, of course.

40,000 years ago or later. The Neanderthals could not hardly hold
their own against the Giant Cave Bears, must less create art. If they

They kicked some cave bear ass for 250,000 years. The neanderthals
have tons of remains, unlike other hominids, which means they were
thriving.

ever did, it was by imitating what they saw us do. We of course wiped
out every Giant Cave Bear on Earth in about 20,000 years. The war is
fascinating. But as we all know, you can't live with bears! Bearman
should have remembered that. Regards, Ken

I'm not sure I agree. Cave bear was not the only megafauna that died
out.
70% of megafauna died out. If we're responsible, why haven't we done
that much devastation hence?
Hunter-gatherers are more respectful of the environment than modern
man has ever been, and we haven't even killed off any species by
hunting alone, except maybe the dodo. Sure we stopped short of hunting
a few endangered species to extinction, we have guns, germs, and
steel, and a hunter-getherer would never let it get that far even if
they could do more damage with flit than we can with super-technology.

I think we both see the same problems in pre-history, but we see
different solutions. Only time will tell, if that.

--
"Truth does not give a damn what we conceive. We survive or perish
according to our ability to discern the truth correctly and act upon
it." - Ken www.veritasnovel.com
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The problem you have is your article is eleven years old. It is way
out of date, and if any did survive, they didn't for long.

Yes but look at the dating methods. And how advanced they were.
Does the article on Toba you're drawing from take steps to disprove
those dates before asserting that there were no erectus after Toba?
And flores man has australepithecine AND homo erectus features.
Indeed, the only reason he's even controversially considered homo
sapien at all is because of the late date.

Neanderthals did not do exceedingly well as their population has never
been estimated to ever have been over 35,000. They struggled

That is a strange estimate seeing as how they yield as many fossils as
cro-magnons do from those time periods.
Population estimates are pretty iffy, especially seeing as how they
have these huge gaps between ancestor and descendent in the entire
span of evolution.

constantly to survive.

For longer than we have survived.

Remember, they were no good out on the steppe.

They were slow, and not prone to hunt in the open where quickness
mattered. When ice ages such as the one after Toba came, a lot of
Europe turned into steppe on them. That means they had to fight the
Giant Cave Bears for caves, as well as hunt, mate, survive. They
would have been good at stalking in wooded areas. The estimate is
when the ice age retreated there were only about 3-4,000 Neanderthals
left on Earth. It was tough for them. Then the aggressive totally
violent cro-magnons showed up. I know you say Neanderthal brains were
bigger, but I quote you a neuologist who told me that if an elephant
could by size hold the same amount of information in their brains as
we can, their heads would be three times the size it is now. As I
worked on my book I used all the doctors I could, as it is germaine to
the story, the brain was important. I talked with several, all said
the same thing, humans can hold an almost endless supply of
information in our brains, an amazing amount. Much more than any
other animal and they don't know why. So, I have to disagree with you
the Neanderthals were as smart, and I think they copied what they saw
modern humans do until we tired of them. We would have out smarted,
out fought, and simply drove them off to the steppe to die or killed
them. We certainly did not breed with them.

Yes we did IMO. Here you go:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070807145140.htm

Of course we were responsible for most of the animal deaths. They
were not yet frightened of us. I'm not sure were you get 70% of the
megafauna, but we killed them, we just don't want to admit it. We
learned not to, but back then you killed all you could kill as you
didn't know when you might eat again. But with scarcity, comes

70% of megafauna would be way more than enough to feed us all now, and
there are alot more of us now than there were then.

If you're saying that cro-magnon could kill more animals with flint
than we can with guns and in less time, who ate all the meat? Did they
risk their lives just to leave all the mammoths and mastadons and cave
bears for wolves?

conservation. We did our damage though, still do to a point. Hope
there is some fish left in the oceans in a hundred years. But my
point is that we only allow species to exist if we WANT them to for a
reason. (Insects, and virus' excluded) We allow dangerous animals to
live because we feel guilty, but if it endangered you or your family
you would kill it without blinking an eye. Then take a picture with
it. That's human nature. But it's alright to disagree. That is what
this site is all about is to see what others think. Thank you for
sharing. Ken

Yes I respect your theory, and am considering your points. We'll agree
to disagree for now.
At least you understand that the mainstream timeline is illogical and
just doesn't work with the facts.
And you understand that there is still indeed a mystery to be solved
and that we have huge gaps in understanding.> --
"Truth does not give a damn what we conceive. We survive or perish
according to our ability to discern the truth correctly and act upon
it." - Ken www.veritasnovel.com

Again, you are looking at things from 1942 now. The report on the
world wide DNA on May 8th says absolutely no. We have no breeding
with any species, especially Neanderthal. Did you not see the special
they did where they tested the DNA of a 30,000 year old Neanderthal
and it was 28 markers different. To be kin it needs to be within 6 to
8 markers the same. They are by Cambridge University report that was
years in the making, along with Stanford's help simply wrong. As for
the animals, who knows how many there were, how many animals fed off
of them as well? I don't, but I'll bet we took our share. As for
fossils, look at us now, there are 6-7 billion of us and growing.
Where are the Neanderthals? And they were here longer, and look at
what they accomplished. Nothing.

They were the first to believe in an afterlife and the first to make
musical instruments. Hss does nothing too, until 50,000 years ago. And
by then whatever they are doing the neanderthals are doing too. So how
do you know that this new technology that came about 50,000 yrs ago
wasn't developed by Hss AND neanderthal?
The neanderthals receive it in some places before the cro-magnons get
there.
I know it's not exactly PROBABLE, just playing devil's advocate here
to make a point.

Plus, it is too early to say that they did nothing. In the 225000
years they existed, they could have made all of the accomplishments we
made in just a 5000 to 10,000 year span. All that would have had to
happen is that the technology got erased or we just haven't found it
yet. Like Doug said, there are probably many false starts and many
extinct technologies.


Again, I feel the timeline is
perfect for what happened, but we all have our right to our opinions,
and we do have huge gaps in understanding what has really happened.
Matt has enourmous gaps in any understanding of what has happened. I
do like reading your opinions. Regards, Ken


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Homo erectus, city dweller and sailor
    ... Royal Athena Ancient Art Gallery, ... modern humans came from a small group in Africa. ... hominids as far as technology goes, indicating it was a social change ... other than three to four thousand Neanderthals. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Homo erectus, city dweller and sailor
    ... Royal Athena Ancient Art Gallery, ... modern humans came from a small group in Africa. ... hominids as far as technology goes, indicating it was a social change ... other than three to four thousand Neanderthals. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Homo erectus, city dweller and sailor
    ... Royal Athena Ancient Art Gallery, ... modern humans came from a small group in Africa. ... other than three to four thousand Neanderthals. ... technology that Cro-Magnon was using BEFORE cro-magnon got into his ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Homo erectus, city dweller and sailor
    ... Royal Athena Ancient Art Gallery, ... We migrated out of Africa and in 47,000 years went ... other than three to four thousand Neanderthals. ... They kicked some cave bear ass for 250,000 years. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Homo erectus, city dweller and sailor
    ... Royal Athena Ancient Art Gallery, ... modern humans came from a small group in Africa. ... other than three to four thousand Neanderthals. ... If you're saying that cro-magnon could kill more animals with flint ...
    (sci.archaeology)
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