Re: Homo erectus, city dweller and sailor

On Sep 13, 11:34 pm, Doug Weller <dwel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:07:11 -0700, in sci.archaeology, veritas wrote:
On Sep 13, 1:45 am, veritas <khogan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 12, 11:19 pm, veritas <khogan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sep 12, 8:38 am, Tom McDonald <kilt...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

veritas wrote:
On Sep 11, 3:18 am, veritas <khogan...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

<snip for space>

Tom,
I will start with a few, stop and do another as this takes to long.
I have studied world history, human history, religions, philosophy,
logic, and psychology for forty years. (Obviously not dinosaurs as
well!)
From all thes studies I observed things that did not fit into the
puzzle of human history as told by historians. They like neatness,
and tend to throw pieces that don't fit aside.

This is not my experience. In my experience, historians (and,
germane to this ng, archaeologists and their scientific cohorts)
love puzzles. Their love of neatness, to the extent it exists in
RL(tm), comes in the process of fitting new pieces into place,
even if (in many cases, especially if) it requires the entire
re-arrangement of all the other known pieces.

The first thing that caught my attention was that the effects of the
eruption of Mt. Toba approx. 71,000 B.C.E. was the second largest
eruption known in the last 450 million years and yet had been ignored
in any studies in the development of human history.

Just a quick Google Scholar (and not claiming that this is
exhaustive):

Rampino MR, Self S., "Bottleneck in human evolution and the Toba
eruption", Science. 1993 Dec 24;262(5142):1955.

http://tinyurl.com/ypljo4(PubMedcitationonly)

F.J. Gathorne-Hardy, W.E.H. Harcourt-Smith, "The super-eruption
of Toba, did it cause a human bottleneck?", Journal of Human
Evolution 45 (2003) 227-230.

http://tinyurl.com/2ctyjv(fulltext, .pdf)

Stanley H. Ambrose, "Did the super-eruption of Toba cause a human
population bottleneck? Reply to Gathorne-Hardy and
Harcourt-Smith", Journal of Human Evolution 45 (2003) 231-237.

http://tinyurl.com/yr6lpe(fulltext, .pdf)

Osbjorn M. Pearson, "Has the combination of genetic and fossil
evidence solved the riddle of modern human origins?",
Evolutionary Anthropology, Volume 13, Issue 4 , Pages 145 - 159,
Published Online: 29 Jul 2004

http://tinyurl.com/2v6j8s(abstractonly)

John H. Relethford, Henry C. Harpending, "Ancient Differences in
Population Size Can Mimic a Recent African Origin of Modern
Humans", Current Anthropology, Vol. 36, No. 4 (Aug. - Oct.,
1995), pp. 667-674

http://tinyurl.com/yulwax(JSTORfirstpage, citation)

Michael Petraglia, Ravi Korisettar, Nicole Boivin, Christopher
Clarkson, Peter Ditchfield, Sacha Jones, Jinu Koshy, Marta
Mirazón Lahr, Clive Oppenheimer, David Pyle, Richard Roberts,
Jean-Luc Schwenninger, Lee Arnold,8 Kevin White, "Middle
Paleolithic Assemblages from the Indian Subcontinent Before and
After the Toba Super-Eruption", Science 6 July 2007:
Vol. 317. no. 5834, pp. 114 - 116

http://tinyurl.com/2youkh(abstract)

There are many more, but this ought to be enough to be going on with.

From the study of Neanderthals, and erectus, the fact that we replaced
them all had reasons behind it, but nobody would speculate, not even a
hypothosis.

You have been misinformed. This is a hot item in physical and
archaeological anthropology, with many, many speculations, and
much work based on those speculations.

I may be misunderstanding you here, because your statement, as I
understand it, is so completely wrong on its face that I have to
check if you really mean that no scientist would speculate on
why, after ca. 28 kya, there appears to be only one species of
Homo (with the possible exception of Flores) on Earth.

Is that really what you meant?

If so, what led you to that wildly mistaken idea?

I had, out of interest in history studied all those
things and came up with one of my own.
When Mt. Toba erupted, the world was thrown into five or six years of
winter. For hunter-gathererers that is a catastrophic event. There
is little to hunt and almost nothing to receive carbs from. The
estimates at the time (five years ago) were that 75% of the animals
died on the plant in this event.

75% of all individual animals, or 75% of all animal species (or
other level taxon)?

And does this include marine species as well?

The estimate was also made that the Earth went into a 1,000 year
instant ice age. That would have been hard enough on living
creatures, and survival for hunter-gatherers would have been almost
impossible. Thenthe instant ice age was followed up by a 19,000 year
ice age to make life even harder. Ice core samples taken and charted
have confirmed these temperature changes.

ITYM ice advances, not ice ages. The most recent (and
possibly--probably--current) ice age has been going on for ca. 4
million years.

Then in 2001 when the gene map (Developing a haplotye Map of the Human
Genome noted that from all the samples taken all over the world, they
could make up one map and it would serve every human on the planet,
except for a couple of tribes in Africa. They thought that very
strange at the time. As I had studied the migration patterns of
modern humans out of Africa over to Asia, noting the coastlines were
always the paths, the idea came that it was because there was no one
in their way. I'll leave it here for shortness sake and finish on
another post. Regards, Ken- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have so far just gotten to Google, I've tried and failed on others,
I know it's a pain. And answering you will keep me from finishing, but
I'll do it another night.
Look at all your postings of articles, one from 1955, one from 1995,
all the rest are 2003 to present. That is what I meant by little
study on a big event. I had read when I was young about the fellow in
India who while making a dig went through 13 feet of ash, and there
was talk, but there was very little information I could find up until
the late ninties. Now, I may have not have access to the right
sources, but I found very few studies, and they stated some facts, but
certainly not a complete story of what would have happened. Of
course, this all does take time.
As for the historians, I see just the opposite. They love to
complete the puzzle, but will leave out pieces that do not fit, or
cannot fit. A good example is almost any history book of the United
States. Wonderful, magical experiment, this country. Then read "A
People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn told from the
underbelly of American society. You say to yourself, "Oh, the others
failed to mention some of this." It's told from a different point of
view and the other histories could have mentioned some things, but it
really didn't fit the "image" of our country. So they do leave out
some pieces of the jigsaw puzzle if it doesn't fit, or they simply
can't find a place to put it. That is one of the things I look for in
reading any history. Do I have anything to compare it with? Did he
have any axes to grind, or just a plain straightforward telling it
like he knows history writer? If he had an axe to grind, that doesn't
make it untrue, you just think you should look some more.
As I had said, this started long ago, in the late ninties were the
times for speculation that some stunning had happened. You have to
remember that when I was small, the answer in science class to the
extinction of the Dinosaurs was, "Nobody knows.". We have ideas now
but then no one speculated. About humans it was not much different
until technology hit and we could do some real testing. It has been a
hot item for 10-15 years, but little was curculated that I had come
across. It's just that it has been the rage for the past few years.
Especially with the human genome project.
Before, you heard the same story, they knew a small number of
Neanderthal were around, but what had become of the other species and
we became who we became, was that we evolved slowly from lesser
species into what we are today. I'm not sure when the change came,
but it was gradual until DNA became the hot studies.
As for 75% of all animals, I would have to go back and try to find
the references I used at the time. (five years ago). I didn't realize
I would be using the references and I didn't keep a log. Damn me. I
would have to think that meant 75% of a species but I have no idea,
and I don't think anyone has studied what species went extinct and
what survived, or where. I do not believe that marine life was
mentioned at all. That is one of the things I meant by still articles
and soforth about it but no big studies.
As for the ice ages, if you look at the temperture levels from the
Greenland ice sample cores, you see that it dropped to it's lowest
level since about 140,000 years ago. It was really cold. If you read
any of the articles I'm sure you saw what they estimated to be a 1,000
year instant deep freeze. I know we have been in a million year "ice
age", (4 million?)but as you also know, it comes and goes apparently,
as I see anyway with the tilt to the sun. About 100,000 year cycles,
with little ones in between. I got my stats from "Prehisotoric
Europe". It shows the big drop about 140,000 years ago, and an almost
as big when Mt. Toba went off. The information was from the sample
cores. I'll do more later. Regards, Ken- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Tom, I'll continue with my story.
Genetic evidence in 1998, and confirmed by Cambridge Univrsity in May
of this yearhttp://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2007050801gavea
confirmation that all the modern humans alive today came from a small
group from Africa between 55-50,000 years ago. The estimate has been
suggested at 10,000 adults. They would have been found in isolaed
pockets. Mainly in Equatorial Africa. Populations in Asia and Europe
would have been completely wiped out with the exception of a small
populations of Neanderthals. Estimates are 3 or 4 thousand or less
survived.
I believe we are also finding some evidence of a few others but not
enough to flourish. Just hang on.
The ten thousand DNA combinations that all living humans are descended
from as us are different from the ones before the eruption of Mt.
Toba.
I base this on the fact that we have proved far more aggressive and
violent. Our intelligence is much higher as the proof of our
technology has shown. I know that is going to get objections, but
let's face it, Neanderthal, and erectus was around far longer than we
have been and they did nothing. We controlled the world in 47,000
years. We landed a man on the moon; we are capable of destroying all
life on this planet if we were to choose. We became sentient beings,
the only certain ones to have ever been known to exist on this planet.
The difference I saw as I studied what we knew of ancient species
similar to us was that they were content to live within the nature
system they lived in. They drew their living by what was available,
but showing little of the ideology of present modern humans. They
worked within the system of nature, not trying, or were unable to
control it. I know the popular idea was that modern human was around
before Mt. Toba, and send the pictures, read the anatomical data.
They looked more like Erectus and Neanderthal and not like us at all.
We came out of Africa looking like we do today, with the exception of
climate and survival changes. When we came out of Africa, we seemed
to have came out with a vengenance. It's seemed from my studies the
other species "lived" with nature. We threw that aside and came with
a vengeance to overcome any obstacle in our path. With almost a fury
against nature and a burning desire to control everything on the
planet. Something that was lacking in the other species. The were
content to allow nature to take its course and live with it. Now we
wanted total control. For the last 55,000 years we have had a
relentless fight to remake this planet into what we want it to be and
we are still fighting that battle to this day. Even if it means
killing a large part of our own species. We have a need to control
and change rivers, mountains, plains, almost anything to suit us.
Even other humans.
We are now sentient beings and religion or governments have become
very important to us to stabilize our societies. Although, I
personally question that religion has stablilized anything. Be we
feel the need to believe in something and religions seem to fill that
gag. We even have an intense desire to control even what happens to
us in death.
We are the only species ever to kill our own species in mass
quantities as we do in war. We destroy anything that steps in our
way. Someone ask me if the Neanderthalls just didn't feel the need to
make the Giant Cave Bears extinct. I don't believe it ever occurred
to them to try. From the outset, we have had a "pothos" to control
this planet with whatever technology we can muster. Look what we have
done so far, and it is jus the beginning. We still believe we are
powerful enough to control the melting of our ice caps. The idea of
control is enormously powerful in us. We will fight, kill, and die
for it. We will and have undertaken enormous projects just to prove
we can change this planet and the way it works for us. Perhaps to our
eventual determent. That's all I can do. I will finish up next time
Tom. If any of you see holes feel free point them out to me.
Regards, Ken

To finish up, I do believe we have had civilizations

Cities, class structure, standing armies, etc? That's what makes a
civilization.

that were lost>due to further catastrophic climate changes, such as the harsh ice age
coming in between 20,000 and 18,000 years ago and things not warming
up well until about 10,000 years ago. These are the conclusions,
right or wrong, I reached as I came to my hypothesis that we are
somehow very different from similar species that came before us. My
hypothesis is that we are much more than we realize today, that we
have always realized from our beginning we are a very special
species. But we still do not understand why, or how we became so much
higher in the order of the world.
While my book is certainly fiction, it is also a hypothesis of why
we are here, and why we are finding out facts we had no idea that we
neither could nor would possibly believe to be true. The facts are
coming at us at a faster rate all the time. After reading all the
current information I could find on the eruption of Mt. Toba, I see
that we are just beginning to really study what the effects of the
super eruption was and what impact it had on the world. This is what
I have seen so far, and I'm sure in the future we will get some more
surprises on the subject. Regards, Ken

--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'athttp://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site:http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderatorhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

Look up on your search engine "The Deluged Civilization" it was
written by the former head chemist of Thomas Edison. I have seen the
pictures of the places that were looked at. We seem to be missing
something. How big is a city? Class structure I don't think anyone
would know. Standing army? I would think of some kind. It is a very
interesting piece of history everyone wants to overlook. I believe
because it was written in the 20's and the archeology done around late
1800's, early 1900's and they have some things in there that we know
today is not so, but that doesn't make it all untrue. And some of it
is "politically incorrect". But the pictures and the archeology work
is good. Pumpelly Raphael did that and was a respected professor of
Pittsburg University I believe. You can find that under "Pumpelly
Raphael Journeys in Asia 1860-1905. His journel is fascinating. Let
me know what you think. Regards, Ken
--
Truth does not give a damn what we conceive. We survive or perish
according to our ability to discern the truth correctly and act upon
it." - Ken www.veritasnovel.com

.

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