Re: The Dawn of Art

On Oct 7, 8:38 pm, David <pchristain...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Oct 7, 8:19 pm, Tom McDonald <kilt...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

<snip>

Is this going to be your summary of Conard's arguments in the
Archaeology article with which you started the thread?

No - I was answering Digger to give Conard's conclusions in more
general terms than just the Archaeology article but you assumed
a more narrow approach on my part.

IOW, I started the thread narrow but branched off to Zilhão, Rudgley,
Bolus, and more general Conard.

Does this mean that you do not intend to summarize Conard's
conclusions as given in the Curry article in Archaeology? As you said
you would?

Alternatively, what do you want to talk about out of the mish-mash
above?

Back up to -

Ancient Figurines Found-From First Modern Humans?
National Geographic News - John Roachhttp://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/12/1217_031217_modernhum...

Cultural Significance SECTION -

Do the diving waterfowl and lion-man show shamanism?

First tell me what you think, and why.

Cultural Modernity SECTION

"The ability to create figurines, which requires manipulation of
complex
tools, together with the fashioning and use of musical instruments and
ornaments, is considered a sign of having reached a stage of fully
developed cultural modernity."

"Evidence for refined artistry at such an early date in humans goes
against the belief that artistic skills evolved over thousands of
years,
said Anthony Sinclair, an archaeologist at the University of Liverpool
in England.

Sinclair, who wrote an accompanying commentary in Nature on the
figurines, said they are 'beautifully produced,' suggesting that
humans evolved their artistic skill rather quickly.

If the evolution of artistic skill occurred over longer time scales,
crude relics ought to be present in the archaeological record.
'But when you look at the first bits of evidence, they seem to
be of very good quality right away,' said Sinclair."

"Archaeologists are exploring several lines of evidence that suggest
something occurred in the course of human evolution around 40,000
years ago that allowed humans to cross the threshold towards
cultural modernity."

Compare to Zilhão's abstract -

"Abstract The earliest known personal ornaments come from
the Middle Stone Age of southern Africa, c. 75,000 years ago,
and are associated with anatomically modern humans. In
Europe, such items are not recorded until after 45,000
radiocarbon years ago, in Neandertal-associated contexts
that significantly predate the earliest evidence, archaeological
or paleontological, for the immigration of modern humans;
thus, they represent either independent invention or acquisition
of the concept by long-distance diffusion, implying in both cases
comparable levels of cognitive capability and performance. The
emergence of figurative art postdates c. 32,000 radiocarbon years
ago, several millennia after the time of Neandertal/modern human
contact. These temporal patterns suggest that the emergence of
'behavioral modernity' was triggered by demographic and social
processes and is not a species-specific phenomenon"

I would like the 2 of us to discuss specifically what the demographic
and social processes MIGHT have been based on all archaeological
evidence available. Hopefully, other sci.archers would be interested
in what we say and would join in.

Clearly the archaeological evidence available is inadequate to do more
than suggest what the 'demographic and social processes [might] have
been'.

What do you think the evidence you have presented says about those
issues? And what do you think would be needed to improve the grain of
the evidence, to allow a better-grounded view of those issues?

<snip>

Just tossing a bunch of stuff against the barn and expecting other
folks to dig into it, with no original effort on your part, will
result in the rope bringing you, after a short drop, to a sudden stop,
and a 'snap' of your neck.

That is not what was going on. Instead, I gave comprehensive
background
for sci.archers on what Conard thinks... a sign of a good teacher to
get
everybody onto the same page.

Don't imagine that you come here as a teacher. Try, instead, to be a
useful participant, treating others here with the respect due those
who, for the most part, have more to teach you than you them.

<snip>

I strongly suspect that my background as a teacher is totally unknown
to you.

On the contrary. You have been at overly-great pains to tell us this.
However, this is not a classroom; we are not your students; and you
have, as noted, far more to learn from others here than you have to
teach us.

Try sticking to the subject, and giving us some indication that you
understand the issues involved. Just quoting folks at us won't cut it.
Anyone here could do what you have done with little effort.

What no one here but you *can* do is give us your analysis of, for a
start, Conard's conclusions in the Curry article in Archaeology.

.

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