Re: Kris Hirst's page on Why Don't We Call Them Cro-Magnon Anymore? updated

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:18:05 -0800 (PST), in sci.archaeology, J.LyonLayden
wrote:

On Feb 14, 11:16 am, Tom McDonald <kilt...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
J.LyonLayden wrote:
On Feb 13, 8:04 pm, Tom McDonald <kilt...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

<snip>

Why Basque?

Because I believe they are the oldest surviving indigenous culture in
Europe, and many of their words may be unchanged since the ice-age.
They may be the last people to have seen cro-magnons and neanderthals.

Cro-Magnon appears to be the first H.s.s. in Europe. If Basques
are indeed the, or one of the, oldest surviving indigenous
populations in Europe, they are most likely *descended* from
Cro-Magnon stock. IOW, they would not have *seen* Cro-Magnon
folk, they would have *been* Cro-Magnon folk (in the loose
terminology that Hirst argues against, but seems to have used, in
the past anyway.) I'd be interested in the DNA evidence wrt Basques.

But with that caveat, I am not unhappy with the idea that the
ancestors of the Basques could have seen, and possibly interacted
with, Neandertals.

However, in your story, you appear to want your shorty grain
harvesters to use Basque words. By this I take it that the
shorties are intended to be descendants of Cro-Magnon, in my
construction of their ancestry (see above). If you grant that,
then who are the giants? A relic h/g population also descended
from C-M?

The giants are really big cro-magnons and the farmers are proto-
natufians.
My reasoning for using Basque words is taht it's a language isolate
that may be akin to Jomon and Moor...

Or Elvish? What are you talking about? No one knows anything about the
language the Jomon spoke - is 'Moor' a type?

There have been attempts to reconstruct Jomon, but they aren't much more
than speculation, eg
http://www.dai3gen.net/epage5.htm

and recent studies have claimed
that less than 100,000 years ago all humans spoke the same language.

The Proto-World hypothesis. Debatable but no reason not to go with it.

I'm not going to say they are speaking Basque, per say, but the words
I use for place names and race names will be derivative of the
supposedly earliest languages: basque, ainu, proto-sumerian, etc.



If so, how do you propose that the h/g's language diverged so
radically from your notional Proto-Basque?* Particularly since
the h/gs' language is more likely to be conservative than the
proto-farmers' language. Sedentism based on exploitation of
cereal grains and other resources available from two or more
adjacent ecological zones would inevitably require the
introduction of many new words.

Thanks that's good food for thought.


For instance, you used the word 'scythe' (which I would suggest
you change to 'sickle', FWIW). H/gs who did not regularly exploit
cereal grains would not be likely to have a separate tool for
that purpose. Yet farmers (or sedentary gatherers) would; and
would need a new word for it. The same principle would apply more
broadly in the sedentary proto-agriculturalists vs h/g language
issue.

You might want to consider either having the big guys be the ones
who use Basque-derived words; or you might want to consider
having the biggies and the shorties discover that they have the
same, or obviously similar, words for the same things--for which
you could use Basque, if you chose. I can see some interesting
plot developments based on this idea.

Excellent idea.


------------
ASIDE: Wikipedia has this to say about Basque:

"While being a heavily-dialectalized language (especially when
compared to the rather small distribution range), it has been
standardized and updated by the end of the 20th century by means
of its Batua version. This one is mainly used in the Spanish
Basque country, and not so much by French speakers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language

This suggests to me that Basque has had a long tenure in
Southwestern Europe; and also that you might have to look for
common words in the various dialects, rather than using, for
instance, the standardized version.
------------

* I am uneasy about the idea that the Basque language contains
elements that have not changed since the Ice Age. The most recent
Ice Age lasted a long time, ending canonically ca. 10,000 ybp.
While some words might have survived unchanged in 10,000 years,
and I wouldn't argue too strongly against it for your fictional
purposes, I am wary of such sweeping ideas about the conservative
nature of the Basque language. It smacks too much of Edo Nyland's
nonsense:
---------------------------
"Welcome to the Edo Nylands' Linguistic Archaeology website.

"This page contains links to a number of documents dealing with
some new ideas about the origins of many of the languages of the
world.

"* Until Orthodox Christianity arrived in Europe everyone spoke
Basque, including the early Irish Gnostic Christian missionaries.

"* All Indo-European languages in Western Europe were invented by
Benedictine linguists.

"* All Indo-Europeanists will tell you that Basque is a language
isolate. Dravidian linguists have proven that the Dravidian
languages are closely related to Basque. Ainu (spoken in Japan)
also belongs to this ancient family."

http://www.islandnet.com/~nyland/
---------------------------

BTW, I'm still interested in learning about your intended
audience/genre; the nature of 'magic' in the story; and the
spatial and temporal setting of your story.
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Kris Hirsts page on Why Dont We Call Them Cro-Magnon Anymore? updated
    ... The giants stood upon a hill, ... Why Basque? ... Europe, and many of their words may be unchanged since the ice-age. ... How do you know that the same language wasn't spoken ...
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  • Re: Kris Hirsts page on Why Dont We Call Them Cro-Magnon Anymore? updated
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  • Re: Kris Hirsts page on Why Dont We Call Them Cro-Magnon Anymore? updated
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  • Re: Kris Hirsts page on Why Dont We Call Them Cro-Magnon Anymore? updated
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