Re: Out of Africa, Not Once But Twice

On Mar 19, 4:08 pm, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 20, 7:14 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:



On Mar 19, 12:43 pm, Doug Weller <dwel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

The physical traits that have led this person to reach his conclusions
don't require your comprehension, thank goodness.

Ross doesn't deserve this sort of treatment from you, Jack.
I'm a bit surprised at your response.
Doug
--
Doug Weller --
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'athttp://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site:http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Amun - co-owner/co-moderatorhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/

I don't agree. If you are posting in Sci.Archaeology I presume you
know about how people today conjecture about people from the past, by
observing as many way examples as possible. I don't know where and how
each person or generation existed between 40,000 ya and today, but I
can accept someone doing the comparison, without needing them to
demonstrate every possibility that might differ.

Do you think that I don't "accept" what Schallici has done? Of course
I do. (What on earth would it mean not to "accept" it?) But he does
more than just make the comparisons. He talks about an earlier
migration out of Africa, possible interbreeding with Neanderthal, etc.
We know about people moving through S Asia to Indonesia and Australia
ca.50 kya, fine. Trouble is he (or the very inadequate summaries we
have to work with) leaves out the last bit of the story, namely how
these interesting traits got to NZ some 49,000 years later. For
raising this question I was treated like an imbecile.



I won't even get into the part Maori micro biologist who found that
Maori women are from Taiwan and Maori men are from Melanesia. Highly
simplified, but basically the Melanesian men seemed to be the better
genetic catch and squeezed out whatever characteristics the original
male group migrating had.

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s823810.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_817069.htm

Why don't you want to get into it? And what's the relevance to the
present discussion?

Ross Clark

Like I have said, if you need this much help maybe you aren't going to
get it ever.


Standard path to Australia has hominids working their way around the
coastlines of Africa and Asia and eventually using some form of water
transportation, reaching Australia. The time frame could be short or
long, depending on who you read.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Journey-of-the-Early-Man---Africa-to-America&id=306389

Then the peopling of the Pacific has many problems, mainly concerning
who is who today and where the current populations of places like New
Zealand fit into the larger picture. The picture is far from clear and
contains the contradictions apparent in the finding that the male
population founding New Zealand seems to have a genetic makeup from
Melanesia while the female population genetic makeup can be traced to
Taiwan. The following has real problems in trying to tie Polynesians
to a greater population that includes the Tlingets of North America.
There is no way at present to find out if the recent findings on
North American Indians negate this or not.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia
Genetic origins
This article or section is missing citations or needs footnotes.
Using inline citations helps guard against copyright violations and
factual inaccuracies. (January 2008)

Recent DNA analysis suggests that Polynesians, including Tongans,
Samoans, Niueans, Cook Islanders, Tahitians, Hawaiians, Marquesans and
Māori, exhibit a maternal mitochondrial DNA link to indigenous peoples
of the New Guinea Highlands 40,000 years ago (Bryan Sykes - Seven
Daughters of Eve, page 133). The paternal Y chromosome also comes from
"New Guinea 11,500 years ago - but since that time have evolved quite
separately from Melanesians" (see "Melanesian Origin of Polynesian Y
Chromosomes" and "Melanesian Origin of Polynesian Y Chromosomes
(correction)" cited in References). After this period, proto-
Polynesian genes exhibit a 9based pair mtDNA deletion common to East
Asians, showing a separation from Taiwanese aborigines 6,000 years
ago. (See "Melanesian origins of Polynesian Y chromosome") Polynesian
population expansion began in isolation in the Pacific 2,000 years ago
(see also Melanesian origin of Y chromosomes). One particular DNA
haplotype - the human lymphocyte antigen (HLA) Bw48 is commonly found
in Polynesian populations, but occurs only sporadically in Melanesia.
The only other known population with an appreciable frequency of HLA-
Bw48 is that of the North American Indians or more specifically the
Tlingit of Alaska. (Susan Serjeantson - Out of Asia - Peopling the
Americas and the Pacific Edited by Robert Kirk and Emoke Szathmary
1985). In Polynesia Bw48 co-occurs with A11, - suggesting a variation
since Polynesians departed from the people of the Alaskan/Canadian
coast. This DNA evidence is supported by cultural and archaeological
evidence showing a definite link between Eastern Polynesia and the
Tlingit, Kwakuitl and Haida of the islands off Alaska and
Canada[citation needed]. This suggests that although there has been
some cultural input, including the arrival of plants and animals into
Western Polynesia through Melanesia, the main genetic input into
Polynesia has been from the north. This means proto-Polynesians
voyaged from East Asia to Alaska 6,000 years ago and then entered the
Polynesian triangle via Hawai'i 2,000 years ago.

Cultural similarities between coastal Canada and Polynesians is as
follows; (From Thor Heyerdahl, American Indians in the Pacific);
Rubbing noses as a form of greeting; Formal principles of rank;
lineage, and kinship Use of mats or rugs for money Fish hook and
harpoon design Tattooing tools and techniques Tiki design and its
spiritual significance. Design of stone pounders along with their
spiritual significance Use of gourds for containers instead of pottery
Canoe design and building techniques, such as use of hot rocks for
steaming hulls open Earth oven procedure House design with entrance
through totem's legs Protruding tongue carvings and characteristic eye
design in carvings Inlaying of shells into carvings Weaving styles
Stone bowl manufacture and design The gaping angry mouth motif on the
handle of clubs The traditional name for the Haida homeland of Queen
Charlotte Island is Haida'gwai'i, very similar linguistically to
Ha'wai'i (homeland). Names such as Tongass (southern) Strait and
Hakai'i Channel appear to also be relic names suggesting an
Austronesian past to this area.

Irving Goldman, author of "Ancient Polynesian Society", has this to
say on the comparison between Kwakuitl and the Polynesians. "For
reasons that remain to be discovered, the Indian tribes of this area
[NW Coast] share formal principles of rank, lineage, and kinship with
Pacific islanders. The Kwakiutl, seem very close to what I have
designated as the "traditional" Polynesian society. They share with
Polynesians a status system of graded hereditary ranking of
individuals and of lineages; a social class system of chiefs
("nobles"), commoners, and slaves; concepts of primogeniture and
seniority of descent lines; a concept of abstract supernatural powers
as special attributes of chiefs; and a lineage system that leans
toward patriliny, but acknowledges the maternal lines as well.
Finally, Kwakiutl and eastern Polynesians, especially, associate
ambiguity of lineage membership with "Hawaiian" type kinship, a fully
classificatory system that does not distinguish between maternal and
paternal sides, or between siblings and cousins."
Polynesia is generally defined as the islands within the Polynesian
triangle
Polynesia is generally defined as the islands within the Polynesian
triangle

"The following DNA evidence will help clarify the division between
Polynesians, Melanesians and Micronesians.(from; S.W. Serjeantson "The
Colonization of the Pacific - A Genetic Trail 1989 pp
135,162-163,166-7) "The following genes set them apart: Polynesians
lack HLA-B27 , whereas it is common amongst Melanesians. Polynesians
have had little contact with Micronesians. There are only a limited
number of similarities in the HLA system. It is clear that Micronesia
has had an independent source of HLA genes, probably from the
Philippines, as indicated by the high frequency of HLA-Bw35 which is
absent from Melanesian and Polynesian groups. HLA-B13, B18 and B27 are
found throughout Melanesia. These antigens are sporadic in Western
Polynesia and are essentially absent from the populations of Eastern
Polynesia. The few sporadic occurrences are attributable to recent
foreign admixture. These antigens are also rarely found in Micronesia.
HLA-A11 and B40 are significantly associated with each other in
Melanesia, but are not linked in Polynesian Populations. HLA data
cannot support the theory of Polynesian evolution within Melanesia.
Gene frequency distributions, as well as linkage relationships,
clearly place Maoris of New Zealand in the Eastern Polynesian branch,
together with Hawaiians and Easter Islanders. The HLA-A-B linkage
relationships seen in Hawaiians are present also in Maoris and are
consistent with a split in these populations 1,000 years ago."

wikipedia

and
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page5.htm
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page6.htm
.

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