Re: The lowly sweet potato may unlock America's past, How the root vegetable found it's way across the Pacific

On Mar 28, 11:31 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
On Mar 27, 7:24 pm, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:33 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Mar 27, 6:08 pm, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 28, 10:50 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Mar 27, 5:36 pm, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 28, 9:50 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Mar 27, 4:36 pm, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 28, 8:53 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Mar 27, 2:36 pm, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 28, 12:13 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Mar 27, 6:54 am, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:31 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Mar 26, 10:16 pm, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Mar 27, 12:37 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Mar 26, 7:15 pm, George <gbl...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

One of the first things you need to be able to work metal is metal.

How about a controlled heat, a method of identifying ores and
extracting the metal
Stone hammers and stone anvils will work metal

IIRC the Pacific islands have very little in removable situations.
Deep in the interior of New Guinea is a rich copper and gold deposit,
but there is little on even the volcanic islands and none on the coral
atolls.

New Guinea was the end of the Pacific Pottery horizon.
New Zealand has clays and identifiable metal deposits that were only
accessed when the European arrived

So in your opinion the Polynesians wouldn't bother to trade for
pottery and metal tools with the South Americans ?
Not how ceramics and metal were sought after when the Europeans
arrived with such treasures?

What do you heat with? The Rapa Nui people used up all their trees and
couldn't make boats.

?? What is the relevance of this to the question of trading metal or
ceramic artefacts?

In the book The Blue of Capricorn the Westerner sees his female
companion as a an anti-innovator. He notices here arranging shells in
a pattern asks here to do a different one and she refuses. The life is
in a pattern, something that has been lost by the contact with the
outside. I would guess that there is almost no innovation after the
various groups reached into the Pacific.

"The Black and the White is arguably one of the most important
fictional stories of the Pacific: A French man who escaped the
wretchedness of his nation to discover that his adopted culture was
heartbreakingly shallow. It is one of those few stories that will
leave you thinking, and you may very well read again and again."

I would suggest looking at some archaeology and ethnography rather
than "guessing" on the basis of light fiction or jacket blurbs.

Ross Clark

Did you miss the author? Eugene Bur***? He died at age 46 so the
public knows little about him. Teamed with William Lederer on several
books.

On The Blue of Capricorn

A rare valuable and accurate view of the Pacific, March 8, 2002

This book has many factual chapters about the Pacific Region, and five
tales that are representative of some elements of the area. The Black
and the White is arguably one of the most important fictional stories
of the Pacific: A French man who escaped the wretchedness of his
nation to discover that his adopted culture was heartbreakingly
shallow. It is one of those few stories that will leave you thinking,
and you may very well read again and again. It was a great loss when
Bur*** died at a relatively young age.

Terrific overview of Pacific cultures and Geography, April 4, 1999

A great example of a excellent book that could become a classic
without being confused with world literature. A strait forward
discription of the South Seas and their peoples and geography(how
coral attols and volcanic islands are formed) without being dry, but
rather using it to help the reader better understand the stories he
has to tell. Anyone who loves the South Seas and the stories of Jack
London and Somerset Maugham will love this book. It is the #1 book I
have everyone read that comes to visit me. I always receive five
thumbs up.

I'm trying to decide whether you're joking or not. The guy co-authored
a couple of best-sellers in the 50s. He served in the Pacific during
WWII. Apparently he also had a PhD in Political Science. This still
does not add up to someone whose opinion I would attach a lot of
weight to on the subject of whether Pacific cultures were innovative
or stuck in some stagnant time warp. (One has heard similar stories
about the Japanese, Chinese, and other people, after all.)
And frankly the two wide-eyed blurbs from amazon.com readers do
nothing to help your case.

Ross Clark

Psychology PhD. From Oxford.

OK, but taught PolSci at Berkeley.

Name another published work that you

would find more acceptable.

A work of non-fiction, by someone who had actually studied the culture
history of the Pacific.

Ross Clark

That sounds like Blue of Capricorn. You have never read it, have you?

Did I say I had?

When you first mentioned the book, you referred to a character called
"the Westerner" (rather than "the author" or "Bur***") having certain
opinions about "his female companion", presumably to be taken as
typical of Polynesians. This was followed by a paragraph in praise of
"The Black and the White", a piece of fiction which, it now appears,
is part of the same book. The second blurber compared Bur***'s work
to the stories of Jack London and Somerset Maugham. One could be
forgiven for thinking you were bringing forward a collection of short
stories in evidence. On re-reading, it seems the book has "many
factual chapters". So is "the Westerner" in one of those, or in one of
the stories? And what was the extent of Bur***'s study of Pacific
ethnography and archaeology?

And then on the basis of Bur***'s bit of instant psychology of his
"female companion", you go on to guess that there was "almost no
innovation" after people reached the Pacific. Yet even a glance at the
ethnography would show you that the people in question had hundreds of
quite diverse cultures and languages. And no, they did not bring this
diversity with them from elsewhere. They developed it in situ, by
innovation. This is why I wonder why we should take Bur*** (or you)
seriously.

Ross Clark

If you want to surmise, surmise. If you want to learn, learn.

Actually, in my indirect way, I was inviting you to learn. But you
don't seem interested. I challenged your extrapolation from Bur*** on
the basis of things I know about. You have not responded.

Read the

book. The "Westerner" was how I remembered the French character in"The
Black and the White". Remember Bur*** spent WWII in the Pacific, some
of his time perhaps wasn't spent playing staff officer. The fact that
he was able to make observations of the life in the Pacific before the
culture collapsed under the weight of Western culture should be of
some note.

The fact that you place this cultural collapse post-WWII should be of
some note. You could learn a lot even if you only read people who
observed and published before Bur*** got there.

His advanced education came after WWII.

If you wish to learn the bits of Bur*** that have survived on the
Internet:

http://www.kaneprod.com/Classof61/Eugene%20Leonard%20Bur***.doc.http......

He was considered a brilliant scholar by his contemporaries, a gifted
examiner of Pacific culture by those that still use his work, and a
great loss to scholarship.

I have no doubt the book sold well. In fact I find that I have a copy
on my shelves, picked up some years ago but never read. But as far as
I can see Bur***'s scholarly output did not include anything on
Pacific cultures.

Ross Clark

Well, since you spent a whole hour reading it you should realize your
errors.

What on earth are you talking about? I didn't spend one minute reading
it, and you have yet to point out any "errors".

Check some of your pre-WWII sources for places like Gilbert

and Ellice, Samoa and Tonga, all NZ locals. Very conservative
societies, despite the exposure to the ways of the British. Or, even
better, demonstrate where some of those pre-WWII societies showed the
adoption of new ways.

No, I suggest that you read some of it, and you will have no trouble
finding plenty of new ways, from metal tools, tobacco and Christianity
on to the establishment of the Kingdom of Tonga. Then you can round up
some evidence for your post-Bur*** "collapse".

Ross Clark

I believe we were talking, or I was, about Pacific island society's
ability or desire to accept new ideas.

The immediate point was your allegation (in support of the value of
Bur***'s observations) of a post-WWII "collapse" in Pacific
societies. You asked me for evidence of "new ways" before that time. I
gave you several examples, and you can surely find more without my
help. You have not responded to this.

Once you disagree aren't you

required by the rules of engagement to show examples that are in
disagreement with mine?

Your one example so far seems to be a fictitious Pacific female
playing with shells. I have just given you several examples of new
ideas accepted by Pacific societies consequent on European intrusion.
As for the pre-European period, a few posts ago I pointed to the
manifest diversity of Pacific cultures and languages, developed in the
Pacific before Europeans arrived. How else to explain this except by
innovation? So far you have not responded to this either.

Or do you just like to be the clown who yells "not so" and then sneaks
out the side door?

Have you developed your fluency in insult as compensation for not
being able to engage with arguments?

Ross Clark

You have an interesting ability, a la a certain other poster, of not
answering questions, taking a statement that the island societies were
essentially conservative and probably would not adapt metal working
and pottery, and turning it into a desire to learn about post WWII
Pacific island culture. This was never a subject and I find you to a
sort of David Christainsen with an inability to stay on subject.
Alofa.

If you were paying attention to the discussion, you would have seen
plenty of good material reasons why the Polynesians did not import
pottery making or metal working as a result of their contacts with
South America. Apparently not satisfied with these, you attempted to
inflate one fictional anecdote from Bur*** into a global thesis about
"essentially conservative" Pacific islanders. Trying to sell Bur***
as a major expert on the subject, you yourself made claims about WWII
and after, which you now want to say was "never a subject". Apparently
you just can't see what you're doing much of the time. As for the main
issue, just to bring you up to date on what you missed, I presented
several points of evidence to your one anecdote. Game over.

Ross Clark
.