Re: Hooked 'X' Runes and where they have been found.

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 11:33:12 +0000, "David B."
<tronospamchos@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:
And what grounds are there for assuming that what is carved on the KRS
uses the Larsson futhark exactly? There are none: you are just taking
that for granted.
The grounds are that it all makes sense.

... sense to you.

To be precise, more sense to any reader than any other interpretation of the sound values of the runes.

The small differences between some of the Larsson runes and the KRS runes do not change the sound values of the runes ...

But you don't know that. You have only assumed that and have not
tested your hypothesis in any way against other examples of the usage
of those runes.

Actually, not so- there are a couple of hints in the next paragraph which should have led you to avoid that sweeping claim.

...(except that the runes on the KRS have been selected from the two runerows in such a way as to avoid ambiguities like first-row K = second-row N). The two bind-runes presented in the first Larsson row are interesting, because they were constructed by somebody who understood both the principles of bind-runes and their use in the Easter Table. Almost any combination of runes can be made into a bind-rune, but only three are used on the Easter Table- and two of those, arlaug and tvimadur, are (approximately) included in this runerow. The author has very properly bound E L instead of the original A L for arlaug, because this futhark uses the X-shape for A, which would make a very strange looking arlaug. The third special Easter Table rune, belgthor, does not appear in this futhark, because its appearance, a shaft intersecting a circle (or rather, a shaft between two semi-circles) cannot be recreated by binding any combination of the plain runes in the futhark.

I have no quarrel with the argument that precedents for the Larsson runes can be found. What matters is WHERE they can be found.

This gets back to my original point. They are not found in any secret
futhark.

You still don't get it... individually they are found scattered across a wide range of runic inscriptions and texts, but they all occur together only in two places: the Larsson runerows and the KRS. As noted in your exchange with Trond Engen, two runerows are not in any "teach yourself runes book", or even in any academic study of runic alphabets, yet the Larsson papers show that they were being taught in 1883. That's a bit of a paradox.

And where the heck is the punch-mark that makes the pentadic "8" so special? Is it another like the barely-visible upper dot of the alleged word-divider after the G of GOTER?
Its at the end of the second horizontal bar of the 8. Its quite clear
in Wolter's photograph.
Exactly where I thought I was supposed to be looking. If it's quite clear on Wolter's photograph but invisible on others, that means Wolter has had to light it in just the right way to make it stand out, which means in turn that, unlike any of the "expected" punch-marks on the KRS, it is effectively undetectable unless you happen to be wanting to find something which makes the figure 8 different from the other pentadic numbers.

It merely means that Wolter knows something about the proper lighting
of surfaces to bring out detail. It's quite clear in his photographs
that he has used exactly the same technique on every rune he has
photographed. You seem to be suggesting there is something suspect
about doing this.

Yes, I am. The more effort you put into revealing subtle features of a surface the more danger there is of finding false positives.

David B.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Hooked X Runes and where they have been found.
    ... the sound values of the runes. ... some of the Larsson runes and the KRS runes do not change the sound ... A L for arlaug, because this futhark uses the X-shape for A, which would ... the Larsson runerows and the KRS. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Hooked X Runes and where they have been found.
    ... And the fact that the Larsson runes now provide the answer as to why ... Except that when you trace it back to its roots, it is not a private ... futhark, and the 'experts' didn't know about that either. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Hooked X Runes and where they have been found.
    ... Larsson runerows make it clear that the L rune with an extra line on the ... some of the Larsson runes and the KRS runes do not change the sound ... A L for arlaug, because this futhark uses the X-shape for A, which would ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Hooked X Runes and where they have been found.
    ... both an L rune and an L rune with an extra line meeting the staff; the Larsson runerows make it clear that the L rune with an extra line on the KRS is supposed to be a bind-rune "EL"- so what grounds are there for assuming that it is supposed to represent the plain "L" for Easter Table purposes? ... The small differences between some of the Larsson runes and the KRS runes do not change the sound values of the runes. ... The author has very properly bound E L instead of the original A L for arlaug, because this futhark uses the X-shape for A, which would make a very strange looking arlaug. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
  • Re: Hooked X Runes and where they have been found.
    ... which form the basis of both the Larsson runerows and the KRS. ... runes, the pigpen alphabet, the pentadic numerals etc. ...
    (sci.archaeology)