Re: Soon 12 planets in the solar system !


Carsten A. Arnholm ha escrito:

ph42@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
(...)
You are obviously not doing public education.

Well, in fact I have given talks about the solar system to a couple of
public schools here, so even though I don't do this regularly, I do have a
clue. And I did talk about other other things than the current 9 planets.
There isn't a problem with explaining the existense of comets and asteroids
(or even galaxies) to 10 year old kids in my experience.

Neither does there exist a problem with explaining the *existence* of
planets. Not even now. The problem is not the theory.

The problem is the practice of classifying and naming planets ("Many
astronomers call this Xena, but don´t remember this name because some
day it most likely will change").


Give a talk to kids
about the solar system and don´t mention Pluto. And without fail the
kids will ask you: "But what about Pluto?".

Who says you shall not mention Pluto? You are missing the point.

I like to try to avoid it, because if I do I have to waste a lot of
lecture time which I could otherwise dedicate to more fascinating and
truly astronomical issues like possible bacterial life on other solar
system planets and the abundance of water on earth. I feel that if I
would talk about everything I would just overload them.

I don't see
any problem whatsoever with saying we have 9 planets in the solar system.

What REASON do you have to say that? I can´t see any. And that´s why
I would never say that (any more). They don´t engage me (even if they
don´t pay me) to tell lies, i.e. tell things which are obviously
untrue. However these thingamaboobs are classified, they cannot be
nine.

To me, what you say directly translates into " I don't see any problem
whatsoever with telling lies".

Or 8.

So when do you say nine, and when do you say eight? Do you have any
system there?

Even though I don´t like the idea of eight planets unless one would
call them "classical" or perhaps "traditional" planets (or something
down that line) because it does not adequately reflect the
revolutionary changes in our concept of the solar system with which we
have been confronted over the last years, I would certainly go along
with any solution AS LONG AS IT IS REASONABLE, i.e. not just based on
sentiments.

Reason is the minimum requirement in science. And teaching science
should also mean teaching reason. (On the side but related to this: I
think that it is a crying shame that most kids leave school without
ever having heard about Ockhams Principle. Ockhams Principle is the
best protection I know against believing bull***.)

If Pluto is not in, and if the kids ask why Pluto is no longer a planet
you migh try the following alternative explanations and see what works best

a) "Because the IAU said so"

I cannot teach science as if it were a religion. I have to give
reasons. I have to explain why.

b) Give them the IAU resolution

You cannot seriously mean this. Do you want me to take you serious?
Because if you don´t, then why should I discuss with you?


What do you think works best?

For your benefit (and I wonder if mine as well) for the moment I will
consider this as a joke.


It seems as if Pluto is
just as popular among kids as are dinosaurs. I don´t know why, but
perhaps it has to do with Walt Disney.

I hope you are correcting this mistaken Walt Disney idea whenever it shows
up?

The "Walt Disney Theory" is mine (well, I think I read it somewhere in
S&T as well). I believe it to be a good theory. But if you have a
better explanation for public "plutomania", I would appreciate to hear
about it. Because in this case, it can´t have anything to do with
Tombaugh.

Are dinosaurs and Walt Disney relevant to astronomy?

That begs the question.
Plutomania is not an astronomical but a psychological phenomenon.


They might not know about
Uranus and Neptune, but they do know about Pluto.

So then what do you do?

Give them the current list of planets. If Pluto is in or out, it doesn't
matter. If Pluto is demoted, then it isn't unique in history. Ceres has been
demoted before, among others. Tell them about it, it is part of the history
of the Solar System.

I suppose that what you really wanted to say is: "..., it is part of
the history of solar system astronomy". A very interesting (and
complex) subject indeed, but I want to talk about it when *I* want to,
and not because I am forced to do it. The history of solar system
astronomy goes way back in time, thus I believe that it should be
taught as a separate unit. I don´t believe in "quick and dirty".


You just have to talk about Pluto being the
first discovery among a recently discovered new type of far out
members of the solar system about which it is not yet clear - at least
officially - whether some of them may be considered as planets or not.
And that Pluto isn´t the biggest among them. Tough luck.

Are you really doing public education?

I do, even though not regularly and sometimes as a favour for friends
(i.e. for passion and not for pay). Besides, what I wrote also reflects
the experiences of a friend of mine who gives lectures every week in
the planetarium of Hamburg/Germany. And where I live, I am just a tiny
little bit famous for having constructed a (fairly large and as they
say quite beautiful) "Milky Way Demonstrator", which allows me to
simulate the appearance and orientation of the Milky Way at any
particular date and time at my latitude more. It it made from wood,
metal and plastic (the disk made on a professional lathe) and is
patented here in Spain.

You mean your system of education
stands or falls on whether Pluto is a planet or not? I am surprised.

You are begging the question again.
My system of education stands and falls with whether in science things
are classified based on reason or based on sentiment. As I said above:
"...teaching science should also mean teaching reason". I would like to
help kids to not get mixed up in that irrational jungle they have to
grow up in. Therefore, I also talk about UFO´s


If the resulution is adopted you will have to explain why Charon and UB313
are planets,

As far as Charon is concerned I can give you the following advice: Make
use of the term "wobble". When we have a planet and a sattelite, the
sattelite just makes the planet wobble. Since normally sattelites are
so tiny in comparison to the planet arond which they go, the wobble is
next to imperceptible. But in the case of the Earth and the Moon, the
wobble of Earth is quite strong.

But recently we had to realize that there exist multiple planets, just
like there exist multiple stars. It really isn´t surprising at all.
And when we have multiple planets, then they don´t just wobble but
rotate around a point in between them.
2003UB313 (hopefully soon with a simpler and lasting name) is no
problem at all, since it is bigger than Pluto. And laypeople tend to
not have any problems with accepting Pluto as a planet.

and why Ceres has suddenly reappered on the list.

Because Hubble photographs have shown it to be a round. People have no
problems in accepting that planets are round. You seem to believe that
people are even more cognitively incapacitated than I do.

I think you
are going to find that harder with 10-year old kids. Maybe not impossible,
but much harder.

Nonsense. This is a perfect opportunity to explain to kids and elder
people why change in concepts is one of basic characteristics in
science, and why concepts assumed to be eternal tend to be false
("science is made by people").
You subestimate the potential learning capacity of homo sapiens, and in
history we have had far more drastic changes in our concept of the
solar system than what is happening right now.

Be prepared to rewind the "what is a planet?" debate in
every school.

I am not prepared to do this for the next three years.

Bring lots of copies of the IAU resolution.

This is didactic nonsense, and if you do public education you know it.


I just hope,
that it will be over soon.

I agree. In my opinion, the only way to end it is to not adopt the proposed
resolution now.

O.K. But then what?

Make a suggestion, but remember:
You may not call Pluto a planet if you do not call 2003UB313 a planet
as well (it´s either both or none). Because if you *would* do that,
then everybody *would* have the right to publicly insult you without
any restraint. If you want others to observe certain restraints, then
you also have to respect certain restraints.


Peter

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