Re: Starmapping software


OG wrote:
"oriel36" <geraldkelleher@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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OG wrote:
"oriel36" <geraldkelleher@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1160910431.089087.73100@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

OG wrote:
"oriel36" <geraldkelleher@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1160833297.030179.198010@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Good of you to be so fast as to pick up on my typo,I withdrew the
post
once I spotted it and replaced it with a more accurate version.

If your only achievement is to spot the typo then good for you but
the
substance of the Copernican heliocentric reasoning remains
unaltered -

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

Against the stellar background the motion of the planets appear to
move
forward ,stop,go backwards (retrograde) and then move forward again
but
from an orbitally moving Earth planetary motions are seen to move
directly around the Sun.

The false and destructive Newtonian view -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct,
sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct.." Newton

I have yet to see another participant to affirm that planetary
motions
are seen directly from Earth even with the time lapse footage before
them.


You still haven't explained why Newton's statement is incorrect. I
read
his
statement as equivalent to yours. If it is not the same, you need to
explain
why

[Oriel36]
Against the stellar background the motion of the planets appear to
move
forward ,stop,go backwards (retrograde) and then move forward again

[Newton]
For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde.

No difference there.

Finish it off - From an orbitally moving Earth the motions of the
planets around the Sun are seen direct .

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

Nope, not seen direct.


Hey,you are not arguing against me,you are arguing against observations
which dictate that planetary motions around the Sun are seen from an
orbitally moving Earth.

Oh don't be so bloody pompous .
Yes, it is possible _in theory_ to determine the orbital motion from the
observed movement of the planets (and it took the determination and genius
of Kepler to perform the task for Mars and Earth on the basis of Tycho's
measurements. It also took the best part of his professional life to come up
with a handful of 'rules of thumb' regarding orbital motion) .
The trouble with wishing to do it _in theory_ is that until Newton there was
no _theory_.


Who gives a damn about 'theories' or how you choose to judge Copernicus
or Kepler,the Newtonian view of retrogrades and how they are resolved
is incorrect,damaging and are not supported by the careful work of the
heliocentric astronomers and more importantly,by contemporary imaging
of plotted positions and time lapse motion .



Anyone, with a little effort ,can appreciate the Earth's orbital motion
overtaking the slower moving outer planets and then consider how the
axial rotation of the Earth exists as a seperate motion which generates
the daily cycle .They can then admire the heliocentric adaption of the
equable 24 hour day to axial rotation at 15 degrees per hour by the two
step process using the Equation of Time correction.


Newton's genius allowed him to change the paradigm so that orbital motion
was expressed in terms of position in relation to the Sun which gave the
'explanation' for Kepler's 3 laws. The proof of the power of Newton's
position is that Kepler's 3 laws all emerged from Newton's 1 law.


Newton was stupid astronomically but cunning in his methods,cunning
because what he did has no good ends.He created the AU by using
Flamsteed's false proof for axial rotation to the celestial sphere or
what amounts to the same thing - justifying the Earth's axial and
orbital motions through the return of a star in 23 hours 56 minutes 04
seconds.

In any case,that is just advanced astronomical forensics and unsuitable
for particpants here who have yet to affirm basic,if
spectacular,astronomical insights such as the easy to understand
Copernican insight for axial and orbital motion.The Keplerian
refinements, which are indeed intricate, is what Isaac used or
exploited to destroy the simple Copernican reasoning and I can easily
show how he did it.

You are indoctrinated into the belief that Newton advanced the works of
Copernicus and the refinements of Kepler like so many other
generations,indeed you would not want it any other way, but
technically,Newton's attempt to force solar system geometry into the
Ra/Dec system by creating mean Sun/Earth distances from celestial
sphere geometry is junk -

PHENOMENON IV.
"That the fixed stars being at rest, the periodic times of the five
primary planets, and (whether of the sun about the earth, or) of the
earth about the sun, are in the sesquiplicate proportion of their mean
distances from the sun." newton

You are only doing what Newton originally started,make up whatever
story you think and hope nobody with enough competence will notice that
it is junk.I am not obliged to go through the Newtonian maneuvering
however I will give the man one thing,he was consistent in how he
constructed his idiosyncratic axial and orbital geometries which make
it easy top spot and correct.


Are you able to determine the observed orbit of Saturn without using
Newtonian heliocentric geometry? Yes ?
Then prove it by producing an almanac of Saturn for the next 6 months
without using any published orbital elements, but purely based on the last
12 months observed positions of the planet and no mention of heliocentric
coordinates.


Look,the Newtonian view of what retrogrades are and how they are
resolved is false and damaging as planetary motions around the Sun are
seen directly from an orbitally moving Earth.

The loss of information by jumping to the Sun to explain heliocentric
motion is incredible and Copernicus correctly pointed out that the
arrangement of planets,the axial rotation of the Earth as an
independent motion,the speed at which the planets move and so much
more information can only be resolved by considering the dual motions
of the Earth.


The challenge is set. I _will_ need to see your working.

You can dither around all you like,if the images of the plotted
positions of Jupiter and Saturn and their transfer into time lapse
footage is not enough for you to affirm that people can see
heliocentric motion from an orbitally moving Earth and thus show Newton
to be utterly stupid in this respect then I do not know what will.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/jupsatloop_tezel.jpg

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

With all due respect to the conceptual Newtonian dog which is useless
for heliocentric working principles,there is no challenge.You either
justify Newton or oppose the heliocentric astronomers but you cannot
reconcile both and I assure you that is final.I did not require or
request Newtonian apologists,I require people who see the sparkling
reasoning of the orginal heliocentric astronomers and then they can do
what they like.

.

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