Re: An astronomer's view of mechanics

On 8 Oct, 18:34, Quadibloc <jsav...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
There is no precedence for creating a fictional or hypothetical
observer on the Sun to account for apparent retorgrades -

" For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct,
sometimes stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun
they are always seen direct," Newton

If heliocentric astronomy simplifies the Solar System, by eliminating
the loops, by having each planet orbit the Sun, where better to see
this simplicity from than from the point of view of the Sun?


I have all too often put forward the original texts of Copernicus,and
Kepler but I know your kind is terrified of hearing it from Galileo -

SALV." The illnesses are in Ptolemy, and the cures for them in
Copernicus. First of all, do not all philosophical schools hold it to
be a great Impropriety for a body having a natural circular movement
to move irregularly with respect to its own center and regularly
around another point? Yet Ptolemy's structure is composed of such
uneven movements, while in the Copernican system each movement is
equable around its own center. With Ptolemy it is necessary to assign
to the celestial bodies contrary movements, and make everything move
from east to west and at the same time from west to east, whereas with
Copernicus all celestial revolutions are in one direction, from west
to east. And what are we to say of the apparent movement of a planet,
so uneven that it not only goes fast at one time and slow at another,
but sometimes stops entirely and even goes backward a long way after
doing so? To save these appearances, Ptolemy introduces vast
epicycles, adapting them one by one to each planet, with certain rules
about incongruous motions--all of which can be done away with by one
very simple motion of the earth. Do you not think it extremely absurd,
Simplicio, that in Ptolemy's construction where all planets are
assigned their own orbits, one above another, it should be necessary
to say that Mars, placed above the sun's sphere, often falls so far
that it breaks through the sun's orb, descends below this and gets
closer to the earth than the body of the sun is, and then a little
later soars immeasurably above it? Yet these and other anomalies are
cured by a single and simple annual movement of the earth." Galileo

http://webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-Galileo.html

This was a man who effectively used the invention of telescope to
promote Copernican reasoning which uses the annual orbital motion of
the Earth to account for the behavior of the other planets leaving
axial rotation to explain the daily cycle.

The variations in luminosity as the Earth approaches and overtakes a
planet can be seen in the text and by observation * ,as a follower of
the false approach by Newton using a hypothetical observer on the Sun
you cannot find these lovely arguments.





Once recognised that we see heliocentric orbital motion directly from
a moving Earth in an orbit between Venus and Mars it is intellectually
impossiible, approaching the level of insanity, to ever believe the
Sun around the Earth is a valid conception. -

"PHÆNOMENON IV.
That the fixed stars being at rest, the periodic times of the five
primary planets, and (whether of the sun about the earth, or) of the
earth about the sun, are in the sesquiplicate proportion of their mean
distances from the sun." Newton

The apparent year of the Sun around the Earth takes the same time as
the true year of the Earth around the Sun - Newton in no way denied
the heliocentric theory of Copernicus. It was his work that completed
the dream of Kepler, it was his work that proved Copernicus right and
Ptolemy and Brahe wrong.


Galileo took as much time out explaining why men would choose to
reject Copernican reasoning as he did the technical arguments -

SAGR." I know; such men do not deduce their conclusion from its
premises or establish it by reason, but they accommodate (I should
have said discommode and distort) the premises and reasons to a
conclusion which for them is already established and nailed down. No
good can come of dealing with such people, especially to the extent
that their company may be not only unpleasant but dangerous. Therefore
let us continue with our good Simplicio, who has long been known to me
as a man of great ingenuity and entirely without malice. Besides, he
is intimately familiar with the Peripatetic doctrine, and I am sure
that whatever he does not think up in support of Aristotle's opinion
is not I likely to occur to anybody." Dialogue Concerning the Two
Chief World Systems Galileo

Unfortunately Newton is one such case where astronomical insights were
bent using an idiosyncratic method to suit conclusions such as
terrestrial ballistics applied to structural astronomy.Again,Newton's
approach to retrogrades and his conclusion have no astronomical basis
and is destructive to the nth degree.





I have walked you through the entire setup where Newton misinterprets
the data arising from the diagram on page 86 by believing if you place
the Sun at the center,the retrograde loops disappear -

http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals/pdf/POSC_13_1_74_0.pdf

There is the horror of your absolute/relative space,the idosyncratic
vandalism of a genuine Keplerian insight which uses orbital
comparisons between the Earth and Mars -

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the earth,
entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils [spiris],
leading the individual planets into their respective orbits
[orbitas],quite bare and very nearly circular. In the period of time
shown in the diagram, Mars traverses one and the same orbit as many
times as the 'garlands' [corollas] you see looped towards the
centre,with one extra, making nine times, while at the same time the
Earth repeats its circle sixteen times " Kepler

Placing the Sun at the center - and acknowledging that the Earth moves
around the Sun - is exactly what makes the retrogade loops disappear.
Because the retrogade loops are still seen in the apparent motions of
the planets from the Earth. To see the Earth move, and Mars more
slowly, and Venus more quickly, even if we do not place our vantage
point on the Sun, our vantage point must move with the Sun and not the
Earth.


http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals/pdf/POSC_13_1_74_0.pdf

The magnificent Keplerian representation of page 86 shows the
position of Mars plotted against the stellar background ,the
retrograde loops resolved by orbital comparisons with a moving Earth
-

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the earth,
entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils [spiris],
leading the individual planets into their respective orbits
[orbitas],quite bare and very nearly circular. In the period of time
shown in the diagram, Mars traverses one and the same orbit as many
times as the 'garlands' [corollas] you see looped towards the
centre,with one extra, making nine times, while at the same time the
Earth repeats its circle sixteen times " Kepler




These astrological traitors here know now there is no precedence
whatsoever for an idiosyncratic approach to and resolution of
retrogrades by Newton and let them be cursed for it.Building concepts
by introducing a zodiacal framework into heliocentric reasoning is the
complete antithesis of astronomy,its methods and its insights
extending to all facets of civilisation.Any society which allows its
own achievements to be destroyed for worthless conceptual junk is
hardly civilised but savage.

That's pretty strong stuff! And yet all I see is that following
Flamsteed and Newton is merely to take Copernicus and Kepler, and make
them plain and clear, and not detract or contradict them at all.

John Savard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is an injustice like no other,an astrological framework overlayed
on heliocentric reasoning and even with actual contemporary imaging
that clearly demonstrates the reasoning understood by
Copernicus,Kepler ,Galileo,there is not the slightest sign of budging
from an ill-considered and worthless view of Newton -

" For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct,
sometimes stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun
they are always seen direct," Newton

Here is what I will do.every single person here has a chance to go a
little way in recognising how telescopes helped affirm Copernican
reasoning thereby they can rightly call themselves astronomers from
the heritage of Galileo -

"But the telescope plainly shows us its horns to be as bounded and
distinct as those of the moon, and they are seen to belong to a very
large circle, in a ratio almost forty times as great as the same disc
when it is beyond the sun, toward the end of its morning appearances.

SAGR. 0 Nicholas Copernicus, what a pleasure it would have been for
you to see this part of your system confirmed by so clear an
experiment!

SALV. Yes, but how much less would his sublime intellect be celebrated
among the learned! For as I said before, we may see that with reason
as his guide he resolutely continued to affirm what sensible
experience seemed to contradict. I cannot get over my amazement that
he was constantly willing to persist in saying that Venus might go
around the sun and be more than six times as far from us at one time
as at another, and still look always equal, when it should have
appeared forty times larger."

http://webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-Galileo.html


Astronomy is not all about magnification equipment it is more about
rediscovering the noble intellects that once graced the astronomical
stage and from that point of departure making new discoveries and
modifications with modern imaging and techniques.
















.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Panis Quadragesimalis of Kepler
    ... Galileo, or Kepler. ... Copernicus proposed that the Earth went around the Sun, ... hold on to the string or rope that restrains it; Newton showed that ...
    (sci.astro.amateur)
  • Why be a believer?
    ... > SECOND the Universe is incomprehensible in size and by comparison our World ... > Sun, Stars and Planets revolved around the Earth. ... > Acoran [Supreme] ...
    (alt.religion.christian)
  • Re: Copernican heliocentricity
    ... primary planets, and (whether of the sun about the earth, or) of the ... You're misreading Newton, you dolt. ... I generally support the peer review process and its ideals just as I am ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Absolute space/relative space
    ... Jupiter and Saturn over the course of a year shows the faster Earth ... Nobody ever said anything about jumping to the Sun to explain the ... " For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, ... always seen direct," NEWTON ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: Poincare conjecture
    ... centre of the Earth revolves in an annual movement. ... " The 10th argument,taken from the periodic times, is as follows; ... apparent movement of the Sun has 365 days which is the mean measure ... Below Newton discussed *phenomema*. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)