Re: Evening Wanderers

On Sep 7, 6:45 pm, br...@xxxxxxxx (Brian Tung) wrote:
Dan Drake wrote:
No; or only officially! Sagredo was the highly intelligent layman who
listened without bias to both sides: Salviati, who spoke for Galileo and
was right; and Simplicio, who spoke for the older beliefs (including those
of the eminent Roman philosopher Simplicius) and was wrong.

The problem, as I see it, is that Sagredo is there to provide only the
appearance of an impartial observer, because as you say, it is Salviati
who is clearly right (with the benefit of crystal-clear hindsight) and
Simplicio who is clearly wrong.  He provides some additional commentary,
but it's always clear whose side he comes down on, isn't it?

--
Brian Tung <br...@xxxxxxxx>
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Sounds great Brian if you knew the central arguments for the Earth's
daily rotational and annual orbital motion like Galileo did.The fact
is that you adhere to a mindnumbing mutation that has no precedence in
geocentric never mind heliocentric reasoning -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct,
sometimes stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun
they are always seen direct.." Newton

So,Galileo could account for the antecedent geocentric astronomies for
they use the same plotted positions of the planets against the stellar
background as the geocentrists but the heliocentric astronomers
observe and reason the resolution from an orbitally moving Earth -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

There is no accounting for Newton's false approach to and resolution
even though it is the basis for these framehopping exercises like his
hypothetical observer on the Sun for retrogrades.I would wish to say
that you all should be ashamed of yourselves but the fact may be that
you just can't see what is wrong and that is disturbing in a different
way .

Until you affirm what Galileo could,you hardly are entitled to comment
on his views and the novel way he expressed it -

Salviati: "In the Ptolemaic hypotheses there are the diseases, and the
Copernican their cure. . . . With Ptolemy it is necessary to assign to
the celestial bodies contrary movements, and make everything move from
east to west and at the same time from west to east, whereas with
Copernicus all celestial revolutions are in one direction, from west
to east. And what are we to say of the apparent movement of a planet,
so uneven that it not only goes fast at one time and slow at another,
but sometimes stops entirely and even goes backward a long way after
doing so? To save these appearances, Ptolemy introduces vast
epicycles, adapting them one by one to each planet, with certain rules
about incongruous motions -- all of which can be done away with by one
very simple motion of the Earth.

Sagredo: I should like to arrive at a better understanding of how
these stoppings, retrograde motions, and advances, which have always
seemed to me highly improbable, come about in the Copernican system.

Salviati: Sagredo, you will see them come about in such a way that the
theory of this alone ought to be enough to gain assent for the rest of
the doctrine from anyone who is neither stubborn nor unteachable. I
tell you, then, that no change occurs in the movement of Saturn in
thirty years, in that of Jupiter in twelve, that of Mars in two, Venus
in nine months, or in that of Mercury in about eighty days. The annual
movement of the Earth alone, between Mars and Venus, causes all the
apparent irregularities of the five stars named. . . .

[Here Salviati explains Jupiter's motion, then follows with:]

Now what is said here of Jupiter is to be understood of Saturn and
Mars also. In Saturn these retrogressions are somewhat more frequent
than in Jupiter, because its motion is slower than Jupiter's, so that
the Earth overtakes it in a shorter time. In Mars they are rarer, its
motion being faster than that of Jupiter, so that the Earth spends
more time in catching up with it. Next, as to Venus and Mercury, whose
circles are included within that of the Earth, stoppings and
retrograde motions appear in them also, due not to any motion that
really exists in them, but to the annual motion of the Earth. This is
acutely demonstrated by Copernicus . . .

You see, gentlemen, with what ease and simplicity the annual motion --
if made by the Earth -- lends itself to supplying reasons for the
apparent anomalies which are observed in the movements of the five
planets. . . . It removes them all and reduces these movements to
equable and regular motions; and it was Nicholas Copernicus who first
clarified for us the reasons for this marvelous effect." 1632,
Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems

Brian,you are part of a very destructive group of people by virtue of
what Newton did to get his 'forces' agenda up and running,the sullen
twisting of lively reasoning towards a half-baked attempt to dilute
the reasoning of the great Western astronomical insight on the motions
of the Earth -

"It is indeed a matter of great difficulty to discover, and
effectually to distinguish, the true motion of particular bodies from
the apparent; because the parts of that absolute space, in which those
motions are performed, do by no means come under the observation of
our senses. Yet the thing is not altogether desperate; for we have
some arguments to guide us, partly from the apparent motions, which
are the differences of the true motions; partly from the forces, which
are the causes and effects of the true motion." Newton

http://members.tripod.com/~gravitee/definitions.htm

I have news for the empiricists, we see the true motions of the Earth
and the other planets around the central Sun just fine so despite all
the hoopla of getting rid of Newton's absolute/relative space,you all
are very much embedded in that particular nightmare.There is no reason
why the rest of humanity,at least those who care,to suffer it.













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