Re: Next genuine advance in imaging astronomy

On Mar 7, 1:03 pm, JHSteinberg <JHSteinb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In relation to that, I see why Ra/DEC would lose depth perception, but
it would seem to me not to be a "loss" as "missing as intended." Ra/
DEC, like latitude and longitude, is a two-dimensional system - it
doesn't depict the distance of stars at all. What would be the value
in having the distance to the stars included in the system? It
wouldn't actually help an astronomer locate a celestial object, would
it? And by "depth perception," I am assuming you mean distance to the
stars - since by definition, there couldn't be a celestial coordinate
system that lets you "perceive the depth" of stars. That's a function
of neurology, not coordinates.


Depth percetion,in this case,refers strictly to the orbital motion of
the Earth in resolving the observed behavior of the other planets -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

The original insight of Copernicus and the refinement by Kepler used
the constellational background as a gauge for planetary motion as did
the antecedent geocentric astronomers and especially in determining
orbital periods of the planets through which the solar system
arrangement is derived *.The difference between a geocentric view of
an immobile Earth at the center of the solar system and an orbitally
moving Earth which replaced it relies solely on the ability to judge
relative motions between our planet and the others but always from an
orbitally moving Earth,in short,depth perception.

The mutation introduced by Flamsteed via the Equatorial Coordinate
System was to set the constellational background in motion through the
newly invented clocks by equating the return of a star to a meridian
as denoting the daily rotation of the Earth -

"... our clocks kept so good a correspondence with the Heavens that I
doubt it not but they would prove the revolutions of the Earth to be
isochronical..." Flamsteed wrote in a letter in 1677

The equating of the motion of celestial sphere geometry with a
stationary Earth is the equivalent to equating a rotating Earth to a
stationary celestial sphere,assuming you are still interested,it gets
worse.The direct linkage between daily rotation and celestial sphere
geometry as a independent 'fact' is promoted as 23 hours 56 minutes 04
seconds through 360 degrees but the full expression is much different
- a star returns to a meridian in 23 hours 56 minutes 04 seconds of a
24 hour day based on the equable 365/366 day calendar convenience.













* 'THE ORDER OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERES Chapter 10 '


"Of all things visible, the highest is the heaven of the fixed stars.
This, I see, is doubted by nobody. But the ancient philosophers
wanted
to arrange the planets in accordance with the duration of the
revolutions. Their principle assumes that of objects moving equally
fast, those farther away seem to travel more slowly, as is proved in
Euclid's Optics. The moon revolves in the shortest period of time
because, in their opinion, it runs on the smallest circle as the
nearest to the earth. The highest planet, on the other hand, is
Saturn, which completes the biggest circuit in the longest time.
Below
it is Jupiter, followed by Mars.


With regard to Venus and Mercury, however, differences of opinion are
found. For, these planets do not pass through every elongation from
the sun, as the other planets do. Hence Venus and Mercury are located
above the sun by some authorities, like Plato's Timaeus [38 D], but
below the sun by others, like Ptolemy [Syntaxis, IX, 1] and many of
the modems. Al-Bitruji places Venus above the sun, and Mercury below
it. " Copernicus







Maybe I've just misunderstood you. It's obvious from the above that I
had to infer your meaning in a few places, so if I misunderstood,
please do clarify.

Oh, and, it's James, not John - but I'm flattered you all thought of
me by name ;)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The crucial diagram where I do believe the depth perception created by
Copernicus in resolving the observed 'backward' motions of the other
planets can be clearly distinguished from the 'hypothetical observer
on the Sun' mutation introduced by Newton( by his exploiting the
'predictive' nature of the Ra/Dec convenience) .This diagram is the
Panis Quadragesimalis of Kepler -

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the earth,
entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils [spiris],
leading the individual planets into their respective orbits
[orbitas],quite bare and very nearly circular. In the period of time
shown in the diagram, Mars traverses one and the same orbit as many
times as the 'garlands' [corollas] you see looped towards the
centre,with one extra, making nine times, while at the same time the
Earth repeats its circle sixteen times " Kepler refering to diagram
on page 86 -

http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals/pdf/POSC_13_1_74_0.pdf

He is,of course describing the same thing we now would be able to take
for granted with our imaging power ,just as Jupiter and Saturn can be
gauged against the constellational background without setting that
background in motion -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

I am under no obligation to go beyond this as I am eager to promote
astronomy as I am sure everyone else is here but I will comment on
Newton's mutation as it appears in reference to the resolution of
retrogrades and in reference to the diagram of Kepler -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct, " Newton

Again,depth perception via an orbitally moving Earth is lost in that
illegal perspective and is replaced by a hypothetical observer on
the Sun.If you look at the diagram (Page 86) Kepler drew out of the
combined motions of the Earth and Mars ,it appears that Newton simply
looked at the retrograde loops as denoting a stationary Earth and
placing the Sun at the center of the diagram would make the loops
disappear !.

If promoting astronomy is a common goal,then why not take a closer
look at that diagram of Kepler's allied with the modern time lapse
footage and you may see the outlines of what is happening on all
scores.Unlike others I actually take what Newton said seriously in how
he arrived at his conclusions or the creation of things such as
absolute/relative space,time ect.Again,I am under no obligation to
concentrate on the errors,only that they will hinder a more dynamic
approach to the next level of astronomy and its appreciation.









.

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