Re: The 3 minute 56 second illusion

In article <0f66f0c1-13db-4572-8798-2e3c3a0c1864@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
oriel36 <kelleher.gerald@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 9, 9:56 pm, Morten Reistad <fi...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In article <4b95156d-3f48-4b0c-a0f5-cb2ec8d5b...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

He seems to be stuck in a cargo cult style 24-hour grid. He frequently
uses the lat/lon 260 degree navigational grid as an argument-by-proxy
for using a 24 hour reference frame, and ignores that one is a time
and another is a set of angles.

He sort of answered the focault pendulum reference; with answer
of 24 hours sharp as rotational reference. Which can be disproved by
experiment.

So, he seems stuck in an "ideal solar" reference frame, and hasn't
gotten around to the problems with that, in that stars cannot rotate
around us without violating relativity in terms of speed, and that
intertial reference frames are inherently sidereal.


Ah,you are only a newbie and haven't dealt with what Newton's absolute/
relative time actually represents and how he uses the different and
flawed set of reference switching views of Flamsteed,you have to
watch that Isaac guy when he deals from the deck,in any case,Albert
and his buddies had a ball with that astrological framework -

So it is astrology. No, I am not versed in astrology, nor do I
plan to be.

Just for the introduction to the group, a short introduction.


I have studied for a minor degree in physics, and I am well
familiar with the Newtonian world view, and can make my way through
the relativistic view with some formula cheat sheets.

I do observe regularly, but city lights make this near impossible
when I am in the city, so I have to haul a telescope to some darker
place. Even if I am 50 this year I can still count out 7 of the
pleiades.

I am also a licensed captain for small vessels with a world wide
scope, and this requires demonstration of good proficiency with
a sextant and to actually observe your position within 4 nautical
miles from the deck of a small vessel. (this is a lot more difficult
than using a telescope, because you have to hold the thing in your
hand). Used this last summer to stay current.

I also wrote a program to generate nautical almanac pages based on
the book "astronomical algortithms". I only generate sun+stars diagrams,
but I include Polaris tables. I got them right too.

This is all physics, not some magical astrology.

We don't have to invoke Kepler, Newton, Flamseet, Heugens; actually
their prose and vocabulary is strongly out of date, and are mostly
confusing to students. We use the concepts and formulas we can
independently verify. Yes, we acknowledgde the great work done by
pinoeers, but their work has been improved on.

http://www.bartleby.com/173/4.html


I have seen lots of students balk at physics concepts, but rarely
this early in the curriculum.

-- mrr

Physics concepts = astrological concepts,how do you like that
equation !.

It tells me what your problem is. You are not an astronomer, you
are a cargo-cult magician wannebee. You do not believe that we, humans,
can actually independently verify what Newton et al postulated.

For Newton it is not that difficult. A good amateur with a good,
personal telescope and a video camera should be able to observe
the speed of the earth rotation within a few hundreds of milliseconds
per day. We should be able to triangulate the distance to the moon
within a few hundred kilometers, and the sun to within a few hundred
thousands, and we should be able to triangulate nearby stars well
enough to have a rough estimate of their distance; at least good
enough to prove that the firmament will violate relativity if it
rotated around us.

All possible with the quality amateur equipment available today.
I am sure members of this newsgroup have done several of these
measurements already.

The difficulty with doing these things are those of making good
observations. The theory is pretty simple.

You, however, live in a world of impressions and fear, not
rational thought.

These are the issues to be adressed. Then you may discover physics
for what it is worth, and the rest will take care of itself.

An astronomer takes the 69.17 miles at the Equator representing both 4
minutes of clock time and 1 degree of geographical separation aligning
with rotational characteristics and arrives at the correct
circumference of the Earth at any given latitude -

http://www.ncgia.ucsb.edu/education/curricula/giscc/units/u014/tables/table02.html

69.17 miles multiplied by 360 (4 minutes = 1 degree) = 24901.2 miles
in 24 hours .

In any case,you are just another one among many,somebody who arrives
all bright and breezy with relativiity in tow and after a few posts
will marvel to find yourself an astrologer all along.Take a tip from
the senior astrologers here,stick with meteor impacts which may or may
not have happenedr the blob at the end of the universe thingies where
you can't be challenged and stay clear of planetary dynamics and
cyclical processes which are up close and personal.Then you will fit
right in.

Oh by the way,the world's authority in 'sidereal time ' here will
instruct you and all his underlings here on what the value actually
represents -

"Because the Earth orbits the Sun once a year, the sidereal time at
any one place at midnight will be about four minutes later each night,
until, after a year has passed, one additional sidereal day has
transpired compared to the number of solar days that have gone by."

There is no such causal relationship. The sidereal time can be observed
independently from solar measurements. With a focault pendulum you can
measure this (or you can use a gyroscope, as the airliners do).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_time

There is where your 'frames of reference' leads,the inability to state
the 3 basic planetary facts correctly,the information contained in the
24 hour/360 degrees longitude meridians.

There is no magic to the meridians. These are imaginary lines imposed
on the earth by humans. Multiple systems exists, there is a 400 "degree",
(or "grad") system in use as well. It makes the kilometer a natural
navigation unit instead of the nautical mile.

Perhaps it will help if we use the "grad" system? 400 grads divided
into 100 subunits? It makes the kilometer the natural latitude measurement.

The earth rotates 400 grads in 23.9344 hours (we use decimals for
hours too in this system, neat isn't it?), and during 24 hours the
earth rotates 401.0952 grads.

You see? The facts stay the same, even if we use a different set
of units.

And the earth's shape has nothing to do with it either.


-- mrr

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