Re: Musings on Nasa and the Concept of Truth.

From: Jonathan (anon_at_earthlink.com)
Date: 08/08/04 

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 09:36:22 -0400

"Joann Evans" <bondage@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:4114E375.A1F0C8EB@frontiernet.net...
> Jonathan wrote:
> >
> > "DrPostman" <Looky@mysig.foremail> wrote in message
> > news:oah3h059nfqd549144kgmda36q3lnd6k9i@4ax.com...
> > > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 21:33:54 -0400, "Jonathan" <anon@earthlink.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The idea of controlling and managing so carefully the first
> > > >discovery of extraterrestrial life shows us the most harmful ignorance
> > > >plaguing the human race.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Finding life beyond our Earth would be the biggest way to increase
> > > the budget and promote further space flights. NASA would LOVE
> > > to prove life beyond the Earth.
> >
> > I'm certain 99.86% of Nasa would love just that. But the boss at
> > Nasa takes his marching orders from the White House. The
> > question isn't what Nasa wants, but the political decisions
> > being made elsewhere.
> >
> > Wouldn't much of the radical Islamic world consider the announcement
> > of life as an attempt by the west to claim that, say, 'God is dead'?
>
> If their God is so small that he can't be causing interesting things
> elsewhere in the Universe, that's not our fault.

I agree completely. But much of the world fervently believes in
a personal god. This discovery would show that we are but
a drop in an ocean of life. It would be a direct challenge to
fundamentalists and creationists all over the world.

The daily paper constantly drips with the blood of such religious
extremism, we fear sparking more of it with good reason.

>
> > Seventy percent of this country considers themselves to be
> > born-again Christians, and they are the party in power.
> > A party soon facing defeat.
>
> Perhaps. But refer to above comment.
>
> > This is more about who controls the discovery, and what
> > President Bush thinks about it. Since the rovers might
> > still be operating come election day, the decision to
> > put a lid on everything till then seems reasonable.
>
> The only 'lid' will be normal scientific caution. It's too important
> an issue (current religions and administrations not withstanding) to
> announce without certainty. Or at least strongly defining the degree of
> uncertainty, as in the alleged microbe fossils in Martian meteorites.

That fiasco shows the need for a different way to approach this
subject. Let's try an experiment! Let do the /exact opposite/ of
the 'modern' scientific approach. Instead of finding proof by reducing
to the smallest scale, using the best technology and gathering
massive detail. Let's use only our eyes, and look for just a second
forgetting all other details ... just the quick glance... at some
unknown scene.

Which is the better way of identifying life, shouldn't we know it
when we see it???

Just do this, click into the photo below and look only at
the thumbnails ...for just a second or two...just click and glance.
Then quickly close your eyes and ask...is that geology or biology???

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m182.html

Then read this paper.

BIOGENIC STRUCTURES FROM A HYPERSALINE LAKE IN THE BAHAMAS.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1068.pdf

"Results and Discussion: Our FE-SEM analy-sis
indicates a range of microbial life forms on the frac-tured
stromatolite surfaces. Spheroidal features are the
most common, with four distinct populations, charac-terized
by their highly uniform intrapopulation sizes:"

And look here...

The Stromatolites of Stella Maris, Bahamas
http://www.theflyingcircus.com/stella_maris.html

Endurance Crater
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/119/1N138744629EFF2809P1987R0M1.JPG

And here...

4. Siderite as a Component of an Ancient Stromatolite
(Fig 26 page 16, please compare with blueberry bowl chart)
http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/mossbauer.pdf

A Bowl of Hematite-Rich 'Berries'
Mar 18, 2004
(Blueberry Bowl chart)
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/mar-18-2004/captions/image-19.html

We should learn to use..and...trust our eyes. As the combination
of our eyes and minds comprise the greatest scientific instruments
in the known universe.

>
> > Doesn't make it right or wise. They want a lighting-bolt
> > announcement full of charts and proof galore. That's
> > stupid. Their job is to gather, and to let it all pour
> > out with all the "maybes" and " good guesses" from as many
> > mouths as possible. It is the job of the /public/ to
> > form the final conclusion....not them.
>
> You miss something very important. Fundamental discoveries don't
> happen on any schedule. Any Martian life isn't likely to be discovered
> before the election, or even in the next Presidential term, no matter
> who wins....

We discovered it six months ago. I'm imagining a scene where some
distant alien life sets down on earth, and in the middle of the Congo.
And watch in amusement as they spend six months trying to
figure out if there's life on earth, on to conclude ...'not sure'!

It's little different with Meridiani.

Just /look/ at the Martian 'Congo'!
http://mars.gh.wh.uni-dortmund.de/mer/opportunity/104/tn/1P137418221EFF2208P2360L5M1_L2L5L5L7L7.jpg.html

>
> > The greatest intelligence and wisdom in the known universe
> > flow from collective properties. As with any true election the
> > more deciding the better. Nasa is turning that upside down
> > by having a select few deciding everything for everybody.
>
>
> Scientific truth is *not* subject to majority vote. On some matters,
> interpretations abound, but whatever the final facts are, they are
> independent of wether 51% believe in them, or not.

I completely disagree.

Truth is that which is unchanging, fixed or predictable. Such as
the great 'laws' and 'facts' of science.

Please point to me one thing in the universe that is unchanging, fixed
or predictable. JUST ONE THING!

The only 'truth' of the universe is that there is ...no...truth.
There is only what we believe to be true, and we arrive at those
'truths' by consensus.

Besides, reducing in scale to understand the larger questions is folly.
The mathematics of life is clear and established now. At
the component level living systems are inherently chaotic
in behavior, and infinitely nested in detail. Swimming in that
sea leads to ever increasing specialization/myopia and
endless complexity/confusion.

That approach takes us ever farther from understanding
reality as no /one person/ could possibly comprehend
the totality of all the detail from all the disciplines.

If the current method of understanding leads us steadily farther
from 'truth' and understanding, rigorously inversing those methods
should bring us ever closer.

Holistic methods are the basis for the new complexity and
non-linear mathematics.

The following online book is being taught at MIT. This is
not pseudo-science anymore.

DYNAMICS OF COMPLEX SYSTEMS
http://www.necsi.org/publications/dcs/

And at Oxford
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quee0818/complexity/complexity.html

And at U Mich and many more.
http://www.pscs.umich.edu/

Jonathan

s

>
>
> > As with all things the inverse of natural, it's a disaster
> > waiting to happen.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > s
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
> > > Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULTŪ member #15-51506-253.
> > > You can email me at: DrJaiMaharajFraud(at)hotmail.com
> > >
> > > "Did the Venus transit occur during sunset, idiot?"
> > > - Grant,on the GLP web board, explains to us how
> > > sunrise happens in NY and Asia at the same time.
>
>
> --
>
> You know what to remove, to reply....

Relevant Pages

  • Re: We Should Demand Nasa Explain The Rover Science Embargo!
    ... > said Edward Weiler, NASA chief of space science, at a Washington, D.C., ... > I don't recall Nasa ever stating any embargo policy. ... because evidence of extraterrestrial life could be ... > the nature of the universe and our relationship to it. ...
    (sci.astro)
  • Re: We Should Demand Nasa Explain The Rover Science Embargo!
    ... > said Edward Weiler, NASA chief of space science, at a Washington, D.C., ... > I don't recall Nasa ever stating any embargo policy. ... because evidence of extraterrestrial life could be ... > the nature of the universe and our relationship to it. ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: Musings on Nasa and the Concept of Truth.
    ... > Jonathan wrote: ... >> Nasa takes his marching orders from the White House. ... > elsewhere in the Universe, ... Which is the better way of identifying life, ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: We Should Demand Nasa Explain The Rover Science Embargo!
    ... > said Edward Weiler, NASA chief of space science, at a Washington, D.C., ... > I don't recall Nasa ever stating any embargo policy. ... because evidence of extraterrestrial life could be ... > the nature of the universe and our relationship to it. ...
    (sci.geo.geology)
  • Re: Question about an alternate abiotic origin of Martian "blueberries"
    ... > Jonathan, make another dash for your freedom of speach, but don't use 'we' anywhere, ... >> of the simplest type of life on earth. ... >> The Nasa geologists embarrassed themselves so ... >> a fiasco for Nasa. ...
    (sci.math)