Re: The Big Bang is not the Beginning of TIme......The latest non-linear cosmology.

From: Jonathan (jon_at_home.com)
Date: 10/13/04 

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:34:19 -0400

"glbrad01" <glbrad01@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:OKPad.226268$MQ5.137498@attbi_s52...
>
> "Jonathan" <jon@home.com> wrote in message news:416b2361$1_3@127.0.0.1...
> >
> >>
> >> "Jonathan" <jon@home.com> wrote in message news:416a4d7a_1@127.0.0.1...
> >> >
> >> > "glbrad01" <glbrad01@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:7bnad.447837$8_6.124560@attbi_s04...
> >> >>
> >> >
> >
> >
> >> > The opposite is true, the world is beginning to look like us.
> >> >
> >
> >> We are no longer looking like us. We are "Balkanizing" along every fault
> >> line. So, however contradictory it may seem, yours is also a true
> >> statement
> >> of the situation.
> >
> >
> > I see this as a good thing. It's the artificial walls between
> > cultures/countries that are the source of conflict.
> >
>
> Interesting. What do consider an artificial wall between cultures? Or
> religions, or that matter? Or philosophies? Or differences in laws? Or
> differences in individual humans? I consider the walls between cultures to
> be natural walls, not artificial.

Artificial is something man-made. A rigid structure imposed
from outside. A natural 'wall' would be constraints that
flow from within the system. The former is dogmatic
and unchanging, the latter adaptive and emergent.

I can't think of an example when two proper democracies
went to war with each other. Much of human history and
its horrors are defined by arbitrary barriers imposed by
a few on the many. The definitions need to flow from
the many to the few...from within the system.

Artificial or 'man-made' is order imposed from without.
Order generated from within is natural.

> Natural walls between cultures being a
> matter of keeping inviolate the integrity of each culture itself. Cultures,
> like apples and oranges and so on, will not allow themselves to become
> extinct by continuous dilution until they have no more substance left but
> only have left a superficial facade of what they once were. The same with
> the other questioned three I listed among many other things human and
> natural I did not. Cultures may associate but they will keep layers of
> horizon, layers of relativity, between them, coming and going. They will
> never combine nor fuse together into some overall grey gruel utterly bland
> and without any substance, much less distinctive substance, whatsoever.

America is providing an example of the benefits of a high level
of cultural diversity. A society of culture mixed and diluted
within a natural (free) setting allows the best of each culture
to rise to the top. Possibility space is increase by less
restrictions of interactions and variability. The fitness
hill is higher with fewer 'artificial' walls.

I look forward to a one world government.

The reason is because that day will only come when
the man-made walls are completely removed. And
that day will define the point the people rule...that
day will be when Nature regains supremacy over
man.

My 'cause' is to see the world returned to Nature.

>
> I have a reasonable nice view of creek and a small wild along its banks
> outside my window. It exists and is viewable solely due to natural walls. It
> has integrity, shape, form, substance, solely due to natural walls between
> all of its ingredients, exactly the same as exists between human cultures
> among so many other things individual to, independent to, sovereign to, each
> human and each human group, all the way up to each human nation and to
> each--eventually--human world and universe.
>
> But I do see iron curtains between more people than there should ever be.
> They are invisible but nevertheless real and impossible to penetrate or tear
> down. This condition exists when they are all manifestations of just on Iron
> Curtain. The Iron Curtain the One World State put up between seven billion
> humans and the freedom of the vastness of the Universe out there to keep
> any, much less all, from eventually escaping, getting loose, getting free
> from the One World State in such an uncontrollable vastness. It has been
> maintained for thirty-one years by state monopolies over Man In Space. It is
> also a treaty, the Outer Space Treaty. "Space is the province of all
> mankind." "The activities of non-governmental entities. . . shall require
> authorization and continuous supervision by the appropriate State Party to
> the Treaty." The simplest definition of totalitarian state is: Everything,
> every activity, everything whatsoever, is prohibited except that which is
> specifically permitted (authorized and continuously supervised) by the
> State. An Iron Curtain of such magnitude and coverage maintained, however
> weak and vulnerable it, itself, might be to eventual tearing down, produces
> and proliferates innumerable iron curtains, and even innumerable iron
> curtains within innumerable iron curtains, throughout its coverage area,
> each and all of them without a single exception being utterly invincible
> (utterly impossible to penetrate even by the State the created the one Iron
> Curtain). Those innumerable, utterly implacable and indestructible, inner
> iron curtains are each and every one of them the 'unintended consequences'
> of putting up just the one Iron Curtain enclosing seven billion humans into
> this one world to impose, to force, One World upon them all.
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> > The mathematics is clear on this issue, humanity is destined
> >> > to swim in beauty. The horrors of history are largely a
> >> > frame of reference mistake and a connectivity issue.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I don't know what to make of this. It almost looks as if you being
> >> sarcastic, or, if not, it appears you're forgetting the systemic sugar
> >> factor, as in mainlining pure sugar. Power corrupts. Super power corrupts
> >> superbly. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. You can't turn mass,
> >> energy,
> >> or any other kind of power inwardly to and upon itself without
> >> uncontrollably infinitizing unintended consequences, nor can you turn
> >> humanity or any other life inwardly to and upon itself without doing the
> >> same.
> >
> >
> > Not sarcastic at all. The complexity sciences are, at heart, the
> > mathematics of nature or evolution. Utopia is a process based
> > on nature, not a final state or object. The question should be
> > if we are moving towards or away from a world governed
> > by evolutionary processes?
> >
>
> Let me define "evolution" in my view--as simply as I can. Evolution of
> structure. Evolution of complexity. Tools that make the tools, that make the
> tools, that make the tools. . . Structure that makes structure, that makes
> structure, that makes structure. . . Life forms (complex structures) that
> produce life forms (complex structures), that produce life forms (complex
> structures), that produce life forms (complex structures). . . Layer by
> layer, by layer, by layer. Stage by stage, by stage, by stage. Ring by ring,
> by ring, by ring, from farthest inside moving outward. Or, from a different
> dimensional look of the inside the same thing, inside or within the "tree of
> life", the "pyramid of life", each succeeding level producing the next level
> above it in which it and every level below it will be integral to sustaining
> any constant of symmetry and stability.

You mention fractal self-similarity. This is a crucial science in
understanding niche-filling in the abstract. But what I see in the
above is a fundamental mistake with the frame of reference.

Niche-filling takes place through downward causation, not
upward. The system must come first and niche filling
later. For fractal self similarity to occur the system must
attain self organized criticality first. Once it does then, and only
then, structure moves into the adjacent possible....into
every other scale in both directions. Once the fractal
filling is complete then emergent system properties
appear. Such as a large evolutionary step. And
this creation follows a power-law distribution, many
small steps, and a few very large steps.

The whole/system comes first, the parts later.

STUART A. KAUFFMAN
LECTURE 5
PRELIMINARY STATEMENT OF A CANDIDATE "LAW"
http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/People/kauffman/Lecture-5.html

>
> I've studied this thoroughly and given it long and hard thought. Once a
> level, any level including our own, begins to output structure vastly
> greater and far more complex than any individual of its own level, that
> level is reaching its niche phase in life. It is reaching its niche place in
> the Universe at large and the vast and ever more complex structure it has
> built, and is ever building, continues evolution--proceeding to mature, to
> expand and grow and evolve, until it does the same as every level below its
> level did before it. But every level, from level up through every level
> extant, continuously participates symbiotically in its own way throughout
> the entirety of the pyramid, all the energies and synergistics of the whole
> pyramid from bottom to top, top to bottom, side to side, sustaining constant
> the symmetry and stability of the whole structure of pyramid pyramiding
> (maintaining constant, absolute, its fractal self-similarity throughout all
> progression). For all life within all the life, within all the life, it is
> like living inside a titanically massive living energy building, all the
> life within at every level constantly going about its own affairs at all
> times while the overall building itself constantly continues to add to
> itself countless new rooms (or spaces; or frontiers)--so to speak--from the
> very small to the very vast; multiplying in ever greater overall dimensions,
> new and inconceivable energies, powers, complexities, and reaches:
> increasing frontier, opportunity, survivability, prosperity and just plain
> immortality--species relative of course rather than any individual--for
> every level of it from the founding level (always remaining the foundation;
> the base) all the way up through all levels above it.

Think of emergent system properties as a vast expansion in
possibility space. Where the creation goes from the top
of the old fitness hill, to the bottom of a ...new hill with
possibilities not knowable or predictable from the
an examination of the components.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, the missing
quantity is forever mysterious to the components as it
occupies a completely different attractor basin.
Market forces for example, they are real and have
tangible effects. But I dare you to place a market
force on a table and stick it with a fork.

Such emergent properties are primary driving forces
yet only exist when the system is operating and whole.
Deconstruct the system to 'examine' the emergent
force and it immediately disappears into thin air.

This explains the seeming contradiction with the duality
of light, for example, the minute you attempt to observe
the system generating the force is frozen into its static
and chaotic components....it suddenly becomes either
a particle or a wave. When the system is whole it
is both at the same time. Emergent properties cannot
be 'determined' as a physicist would like to do.

Dark energy and matter is no different than a market
force imo. Once the universe becomes matter dominated....
once it attains a certain level of critical order...suddenly
and mysteriously a new and invisible force appears.

An emergent force. Dark energy and matter will be
invisible..to determistic or reductionist science forever.

But from a complexity view its trivial. We will never
directly know dark energy and matter any more
than an animal will know intelligence. As an emergent
property is in another world...a different basin of
attraction not describable in part terms.

>
> Corner this complex structure production, this "evolution," on Earth and
> that which did the cornering will over time warp it malignantly eventually,
> destabilizing it throughout every level and dimension of it until it
> collapses in on itself and the founding and first levels of it have to start
> the whole process all over again--that is, providing the Universe at large
> gives this lesser pyramid the vast time it needs to spread out again and
> level up all over again to the production of another species level that will
> this time take it on out and up to the vaster space, time, mass, and energy,
> dimensions and environments it will need to continue to infinity what it
> fundamentally exists for, fractal self-similar "deja-vu all over again."
> Everything else is bonus; is reward.

Evolution, due to power law instability, certainly goes in fits and starts.
But there is one crucial aspect that you've apparently missed.

These self-organizing tendencies are not limited to living systems.

WHAT??? You may say.

Complexity science can be applied to any complex adaptive
system whether material, living or intellectual...even emotional.
Since the math is built on the connections between things, not
what things ...are. Since it uses a holistic or system frame
instead of building from system specific parts.

This may seem a minor point, but when it first dawned on
me that physical systems evolve...in the Darwinian sense, it
changed everything.

It means the universe inevitably evolves that ideal conditions
for life to evolve. It means life and intelligence is mathematically
certain. The final probable state, the most likely state in the
universe is to find the solutions needed to attain self organized
criticality....niche-filling...and never ending emergent properties.

This 'creative' force is inherent to the universe, it is pervasive
and relentless. Once may then ask some simple questions.
What system properties and conditions are needed to produce
the next great emergent step?

The needed conditions are to connect massively and in parallel
the minds of humanity. The next step is a collective intelligence
and wisdom some may call God.

>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> > The internet is solving those problems as we speak, the
> >> > world is transforming...itself ..now. No longer being
> >> > held back by human foolishness but is in the hands
> >> > of the great masses....Nature is taking over.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I was in the information processing and technology field for over
> >> thirty
> >> years. I was in on the ground floor of internet development, literally,
> >> in
> >> Air Force Systems Command during my career in the Air Force. I know what
> >> the
> >> core physicality of the net is and it is not in the hands of the masses
> >> by
> >> any means. Be that as it is, the internet is an utterly unhealthy body,
> >> brain, time and wealth wasting addiction for the great majority of people
> >> as
> >> much as it is simply another communications and information tool in the
> >> toolbox for the rest. Concerning information, there is as much or more
> >> misinformation and disinformation on the net as there is information. And
> >> nothing has changed concerning human gullibility. Nothing exercises
> >> humans
> >> mentally, emotionally, and physically as much as harsh tests and hard
> >> lessons. The internet provides for neither, just the opposite.
> >
> >
> >
> > I couldn't disagree more. The internet is providing massive parallel
> > connectivity, it is removing the artificial walls that have been the
> > source of most human conflict. The internet represents freedom
> > and diversity, the most essential aspects to initiate a self
> > organizing system...nature. The internet is analogous to the
> > second law, providing the complexity and interaction for
> > the fourth law....self-organization.
> >
> > The government/corporations may own the network. But they
> > cannot control its use. I know ways to speak on the internet
> > even if the NSA had a hard-on for me. There are a few
> > ngs that have tested this statement for several years now.
> > The government lost even with bin-Laden like
> > efforts to silence them.
> >
> > Freedom is the key to establishing nature/utopia on earth.
> > We have that freedom now, and it's electronic tentacles
> > have become relentless.
> >
> >
>
> Define "freedom" for me

Freedom, the kind needed for evolution, would be each
component connected in parallel to every other. But
with a non-integer or fractal connectivity that is midway
between the system specific possibility space. Or more simply
a complex level of connectivity. Each component not
connected fully to the others, or too loosely.

For example, a cloud. With too high connectivity it's a puddle.
With too low it's a gas. But in this intermediate or complex
realm it's both at the same time. Trajectories intractably
entangled in phase space so that once can't tell if it's behaving
as a particle or a wave. This is a fundamental property of
organized systems, the parts behave chaotically yet the
whole is organized.

This highlights the futility of using reductionsm and determinism...
classical means...to analyze real world or natural systems/reality.
As the components are moving chaotically and the fractal niche
filling is infinitely nested.

Reality is understood by expanding to the whole first, by looking
at the output first. But one can't measure a cloud or predict
it's future exactly...only guess it. So you see, a deeper
understanding of reality must pass first through the greatest
scientific instrument of the known universe....our eyes
and minds.

Through subjective methods. Objective methods destroy
emergent properties, which are the most important
of all. Objective methods leave us ignorant and concluding
that nothing can truly be 'known'.

By simply reversing the primary frame of classical methods.
By looking at the system first, the parts later. And by
looking at what systems /do/, not what parts are.
We can transform the uncertainty principle into
complete certainty. A mathematical certainty that
life, intelligence...even God will evolve.

Life is most certainly not a fluke.

The universe is most certainly full of life and intelligence.

God most certainly exists, or will.

>in a shrunken and artificially closed state of
> world artificially isolated from more than half the world itself, as that
> more than half being designated by the One World State the "common heritage
> of all mankind," as well it being isolated from the entire Universe at large
> as space being the "province of all mankind" (deja-vu, the "common heritage
> of all mankind"). "The government can do for the people only in proportion
> as it can do to the people." -- Thomas Jefferson. "Rights" production on a
> world class assembly line until there are no more rights. "Freedoms"
> production on a world class assembly line until there is no more freedom.
> "Environmentalism" cornering freedom into tighter and ever tighter corners.
>
> From The Lessons of History, by Will Durant: "Nature smiles at the union
> of freedom and equality in our utopias. For freedom and equality are sworn
> and everlasting enemies, and when one prevails the other dies. Leave men
> free, and their natural inequalities will multiply almost geometrically, as
> in England and America in the nineteenth century under [laissez-faire]. To
> check the growth of inequality, liberty must be sacrificed, as in Russia
> after 1917. Even when repressed, inequality grows; only the man who is below
> the average in economic ability desires equality; those who are conscious of
> superior ability desire freedom; and in the end superior ability has its
> way. Utopias of equality are biologically doomed . . . A society in which
> all potential abilities are allowed to develop and function will have a
> survival advantage in the competition of groups. This competition becomes
> more severe as the destruction of distance intensifies the confrontation of
> states.
>
> "The third biological lesson of history is that life must breed. Nature has
> no use for organisms, variations, or groups that cannot reproduce
> abundantly. She has a passion for quantity as prerequisite to the selection
> of quality . . . She is more interested in the species than in the
> individual, and makes little difference between civilization and barbarism.
> She does not care that a high birth rate has usually accompanied a
> culturally low civilization, and a low birth rate a civilization culturally
> high; and she (here meaning Nature as the process of birth, variation,
> competition, selection, and survival) sees to it that a nation with a low
> birth rate shall be periodically chastened by some more virile and fertile
> group. Gaul survived against the Germans through the help of Roman legions
> in Caesar's days, and through the help of British and American legions in
> our time. When Rome fell the Franks rushed in from Germany adn made Gaul
> France; if England and America should fall, France, whose population
> remained almost stationary through the nineteenth century, might again be
> overrun."
>
> It is being overrun now by massive invasion, massive immigration, from
> Islamic states. And these adherents of Islam are growing in fury within
> France over France's growing Socialist restrictions (constrictions)
> concerning them and their religious and cultural practices. It is the same
> almost everywhere in the EU. Europe, stripped by state Socialism of history
> (thus lessons of history), tradition, religion, moral and responsible
> base--walls if you will--has turned to nothing but formless jelly and is
> destabilizing fast throughout most of its states. So is South America, and
> so is Africa, and so are the United States and Canada, if one bothers to
> observe what is going on with a knowledgeably competent background in the
> right variety of fields to do so.
>
> >
> >>
> >> > As a result we are destined to swim in beauty. This
> >> > is a mathematical fact I can prove if you care to
> >> > discuss the issue seriously. Until you understand
> >> > the mathematics of evolution and its tendencies, you
> >> > don't understand reality or our future probable
> >> > state.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I've answered this above in two arenas, but those answers apply.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > An Introduction to Complex Systems
> >> > Torsten Reil, Department of Zoology, University of Oxford
> >> > http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quee0818/complexity/complexity.html
> >> >
> >> > "Research therefore focused on NK Models in the complex
> >> > 2egime, with K=2 (and more finely tuned using the p parameter).
> >> > The fitness landscapes of these networks are somewhere in
> >> > between the fully random one, and the "Fujijama" landscape.
> >> > There is an intermediate number of fitness peaks - and these
> >> > were found to have very interesting properties: "
> >> >
> >> > "First, the highest peaks are close to another, they form a
> >> > cluster on the fitness landscape: "
> >> >
> >> > "Explanation
> >> > The reason for this phenomenon is not known yet."'
> >> >
> >> > "Nor is that for another feature: the highest peaks form the largest
> >> > basins of attraction. In other words, if you start on some random
> >> > point in the fitness landscape, you are more likely to walk up one
> >> > of the highest peaks than a lower one."
> >> >
> >> > "As just mentioned, these phenomena have so far defied mathematical
> >> > analysis, however they have many potential implications for real
> >> > evolution: Kauffman suggest that these results apply to biological
> >> > networks as well. If this was true, then there is some order in real
> >> > fitness landscapes that was not anticipated by biologists. Organisms
> >> > may be attracted to the highest fitness peaks more likely than to
> >> > low ones, because a) they provide the largest attractor basins,
> >> > and b) they are located close together. Evolutionary biologists
> >> > have started to become interested in this idea, for it may provide
> >> > insights as to why animals seemingly evolve efficiently to high
> >> > fitness states and not get stuck on poor local ones."
> >> >
> >>
> >> If you know anything about the science of complexity and theory of
> >> chaos,
> >> and I know more about them than most, then you know that you can't
> >> predict
> >> how much waste room you will need to manuever, nor how much waste margins
> >> you will need for error, nor how much tolerance and intolerance you will
> >> need in a life class, a world class, or Universe class, system.
> >
> >
> > You have little faith. The primary quality of complex adaptive
> > systems is that they converge on the best solution ...all by
> > themselves. We don't need to find the solutions, we need
> > to provide the proper levels of freedom and connectivity
> > to allow the network to evolve.
> >
> >
>
> I've answered this, above. "Little faith"? Open the door to the Universe
> and I will have all the faith there is in the Universe. Keep that door
> closed, keep the Earth a world-class concentration camp ("Serfdom" means
> states pinning humans to the earth, and it also means states pinning humans
> to the Earth), and I can prophecy doom until doomsday and the
> world--overall--will strictly adhere to my prophecy. It seems I've been
> interested in and have studied in, and have thought in, all the required
> fields necessary to perceive the overall event picture in all the many
> necessary dimensions of it.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >> Also you
> >> must know that tyrannical systems have survived in being throughout the
> >> ages
> >> just as long as freer systems. Both are still around. And both will
> >> continue
> >> to stay around. There will be balance to nature. Any imbalancing will
> >> build
> >> opposing forces to balance.
> >
> >
> > A dictatorship is a wall, a small section of forest cut-off from the
> > whole. As hard as they may fight to remain rigid they cannot
> > survive for long in the face of the Congo. The walls are falling.
> > The internet is creating a stronger whole from a quilt of isolated
> > and diseased commercial forests. Democracy/nature is destined
> > to win.
> >
>
> Not in the least I'd say.
>
> >
> >
> >>For most action (I hesitate to say "for every
> >> action") there will be an equal but opposite reaction. We are an aware,
> >> complex, species specifically because we are so much a diverse species
> >> internal to our species. We've been fitted by nature for survival by
> >> being
> >> fitted by nature for entrance into the Universe at large rather than
> >> eventually adhering to any one niche system on Earth. We are "spatial"
> >> beings, not 'one world', 'one system', beings, therefore we will either
> >> conquer space or we kill each other for space: And the amount of space
> >> each
> >> of us needs is relative to the individual and can never be systematically
> >> calculated and rationed out to the individual by the state.
> >
> >
> > But it is the rigid structure/dictatorship imposed on a natural system
> > ....society...that is the heart of all conflicts. The interests
> > of the natural system drifts/adapts over time, while the imposed
> > rigid structure doesn't. So stress inherently builds within
> > non-democratic/non-adaptive governments. It's the idea we can
> > out-design nature and impose fixed structures that is the
> > source of confect/wars and most human horrors.
> >
> > Remove the walls and the world is transformed from negative
> > to positive sum....utopia.
> >
>
> Democracy develops rigor mortis over time. It goes far too far beyond its
> limitations after a while and then is gone just like that. Pfsst.
>
> >
> >
> >> In my case, and
> >> in the case of a great many human 'Outsiders' like me, an infinite amount
> >> of
> >> space would just about barely meet my requirements for space. Thus I am
> >> one
> >> of those humans who in no way minds occupying an infinitesimal space
> >> within
> >> an infinite space, which is to say I would in no way mind occupying the
> >> space of a space suit, a space ship, a space station, or an O'Neill
> >> colony,
> >> within the vast space of the Universe itself. But just as I feel very
> >> constricted, restricted, limited, claustrophobic, now here on Earth, so I
> >> would feel the same way on the Moon, on Mars, or on any other moon or
> >> planet
> >> in the entire Universe. I am not even close to being alone among humans
> >> in
> >> sensing the Call of Infinity and feeling its gravitational tug at me.
> >
> >
> >
> > "There is a solitude of space,
> > A solitude of sea,
> > A solitude of death, but these
> > Society shall be,
> > Compared with that profounder site,
> > That polar privacy,
> > A Soul admitted to Itself:
> > Finite Infinity."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Utopian "evolution" of mankind is fool's gold trying to compete with gold
> >> by
> >> comparison.
> >
> >
> > Utopia for an individual lies simply in the understanding of
> > natural processes. The goal is the thing, and nature its path.
> >
> >
> > "There is another Loneliness
> > That many die without,
> > Not want or friend occasions it,
> > Or circumstances or lot.
> >
> > But nature sometimes, sometimes thought,
> > And whoso it befall
> > Is richer than could be divulged
> > By mortal numeral."
> >
> >
> > Emily Dickinson
> >
> >
> >> The disastrous error of the political-scientific state trying to [most]
> >> arrogantly and dictatorially redefine for all of us what is life, what is
> >> human and what is humanity (what is Man and what is Mankind), and what
> >> the
> >> future should be for all of us without exception--the prediction adhering
> >> to
> >> Aldous Huxley's "A Brave New World" actually coming to pass--was made
> >> back
> >> in the late 1960s and early 1970s and has been steadily, relentlessly,
> >> compounding in 'unintended consequences' ever since.
> >
> >
> >
> > Wisdom is a collective property, as is the definitions of reality.
> > The collective intelligence forming form the massive connectivity
> > of the internet will redefine everything. And with a wisdom
> > no one person can possible equal. Soon governments will
> > be a reflection of us, not the other way around.
> >
>
> Teh internet, like television before it, is doing brain drain. It is
> dumbing down the masses.
>
> >
> > An emergent system property is about to unfold. A collective
> > wisdom and supreme intelligence with the power of creation.
> > God comes at the /end/ of the evolutionary ladder, not the
> > beginning.
> >
>
> You've not read the Old Testament's first chapter have you? The fabled
> part about the Babel of all mankind. Actually, the fable of Babel is the
> third rendition within Genesis of mankind doing exactly the same thing,
> Utopia (Greek for Nowhereland (u-topos: no place), Void, Vacuum,
> Everythingness and Nothingness, no horizons, etc.), as if it will never
> learn from God's punishments for doing it. 'Exodus' supposed tells the story
> of the fourth time men try it. The Apocalypse, Revelations, tells the
> overall story about every time Man tries it (going for Utopia in place
> rather than God's unlimited table of plenty, the Universe at large). Though
> I am not a Christian, Jew, or Islamic, or any other particular religion,
> I've studied the Bible too among so many others and connected the wisdom
> I've acquired from study from so many other sources with that wisdom of the
> ancients. The Hebrews weren't the only ancients by any means to have those
> same stories, though in differing settings.
>
> > The world is returning to nature, and She is not only
> > testable, but worthy of reverence. There's no need
> > for science and religion to be separate. They are both
> > equally empty and in error when alone.
> >
>
> In the last part of the above, I completely agree. Stephen Hawking wrote
> that he lamented the division of physics, cosmology and philosophy into
> three different fields.

The primary realms of behavior in the universe are the
static, dynamic and chaotic.

When a static and chaotic attractor are in an unstable
equilibrium...at the edge of chaos...a dynamic attractor
forms from them....and self organization/evolution/creation
occurs.

Using this frame such divisions are easy to resolve.

The static realm is one of few variables and fixed/deterministic laws.
The chaotic realm is of near infinite variables and statistical solutions.
The dynamic realm is right in the middle. Not enough variables
for a statistical treatment, but too many for classical mechanics.

Static, dynamic and chaotic.
Solid, liquid and gas.
Classical motion, thermodynamics and quantum motion.
Matter, light and energy
Geology, biology and cosmology
Genetics, selection and mutation
Science, art and philosophy
Body, mind and spirit.

Truth, beauty and love.

All these realms are now open to mathematical
investigation...even art or our emotions.
http://www.calresco.org/

Remove any one realm of each paradigm, and
the view is empty, incomplete and 'uncertain'.

Only our eyes and minds can comprehend all three
at once. Only subjective methods can understand
reality. Prose and poetry is destined to be the
scientific language of the future.

Can you see complexity science is this poem. It's
all there. From the rejection of reductionism, to
the need to understand nature abstractly. Even
the three realm paradigm of complexity science
is there in "simplicity, harmony and heaven."
Dear Emily was so far ahead of her time it
may be generations before she's
understood.

NATURE is what we see,
  The Hill, the Afternoon-
Squirrel, Eclipse, the Bumble-bee,
Nay-Nature is Heaven.

Nature is what we hear,
The Bobolink, the Sea
Thunder, the Cricket
Nay,-Nature is Harmony.

Nature is what we know
But have no art to say,
So impotent our wisdom is
To Her simplicity

By E Dickinson

Jonathan

s

 I took it to mean the division badly warped and
> crippled all three out of all proportion. Personally I also lament the
> division of art and science in two. Life is not so much science as it is
> art, and life [is] a force in the Universe. Just possibly, [the] force.
> Remember what I wrote about innumerable untouchable iron curtains
> irresistably, invincibly, splitting many things up never meant to be so
> split.

>
> >
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> Brad
>
>