Re: The Big Bang is not the Beginning of TIme......The latest non-linear cosmology.

From: glbrad01 (glbrad01_at_insightbb.com)
Date: 10/14/04 

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:51:20 GMT

"Jonathan" <jon@home.com> wrote in message news:416c78c4$1_1@127.0.0.1...
>
> "glbrad01" <glbrad01@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:OKPad.226268$MQ5.137498@attbi_s52...
>>
>> "Jonathan" <jon@home.com> wrote in message news:416b2361$1_3@127.0.0.1...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> "Jonathan" <jon@home.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:416a4d7a_1@127.0.0.1...
>> >> >
>> >> > "glbrad01" <glbrad01@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:7bnad.447837$8_6.124560@attbi_s04...
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> > The opposite is true, the world is beginning to look like us.
>> >> >
>> >
>> >> We are no longer looking like us. We are "Balkanizing" along every
>> >> fault
>> >> line. So, however contradictory it may seem, yours is also a true
>> >> statement
>> >> of the situation.
>> >
>> >
>> > I see this as a good thing. It's the artificial walls between
>> > cultures/countries that are the source of conflict.
>> >
>>
>> Interesting. What do consider an artificial wall between cultures? Or
>> religions, or that matter? Or philosophies? Or differences in laws? Or
>> differences in individual humans? I consider the walls between cultures
>> to
>> be natural walls, not artificial.
>
>
>
> Artificial is something man-made. A rigid structure imposed
> from outside. A natural 'wall' would be constraints that
> flow from within the system. The former is dogmatic
> and unchanging, the latter adaptive and emergent.
>
> I can't think of an example when two proper democracies
> went to war with each other. Much of human history and
> its horrors are defined by arbitrary barriers imposed by
> a few on the many. The definitions need to flow from
> the many to the few...from within the system.
>
> Artificial or 'man-made' is order imposed from without.
> Order generated from within is natural.
>
>
>> Natural walls between cultures being a
>> matter of keeping inviolate the integrity of each culture itself.
>> Cultures,
>> like apples and oranges and so on, will not allow themselves to become
>> extinct by continuous dilution until they have no more substance left but
>> only have left a superficial facade of what they once were. The same with
>> the other questioned three I listed among many other things human and
>> natural I did not. Cultures may associate but they will keep layers of
>> horizon, layers of relativity, between them, coming and going. They will
>> never combine nor fuse together into some overall grey gruel utterly
>> bland
>> and without any substance, much less distinctive substance, whatsoever.
>
>
> America is providing an example of the benefits of a high level
> of cultural diversity. A society of culture mixed and diluted
> within a natural (free) setting allows the best of each culture
> to rise to the top. Possibility space is increase by less
> restrictions of interactions and variability. The fitness
> hill is higher with fewer 'artificial' walls.
>
> I look forward to a one world government.
>
> The reason is because that day will only come when
> the man-made walls are completely removed. And
> that day will define the point the people rule...that
> day will be when Nature regains supremacy over
> man.
>
> My 'cause' is to see the world returned to Nature.
>
>
>>
>> I have a reasonable nice view of creek and a small wild along its banks
>> outside my window. It exists and is viewable solely due to natural walls.
>> It
>> has integrity, shape, form, substance, solely due to natural walls
>> between
>> all of its ingredients, exactly the same as exists between human cultures
>> among so many other things individual to, independent to, sovereign to,
>> each
>> human and each human group, all the way up to each human nation and to
>> each--eventually--human world and universe.
>>
>> But I do see iron curtains between more people than there should ever
>> be.
>> They are invisible but nevertheless real and impossible to penetrate or
>> tear
>> down. This condition exists when they are all manifestations of just on
>> Iron
>> Curtain. The Iron Curtain the One World State put up between seven
>> billion
>> humans and the freedom of the vastness of the Universe out there to keep
>> any, much less all, from eventually escaping, getting loose, getting free
>> from the One World State in such an uncontrollable vastness. It has been
>> maintained for thirty-one years by state monopolies over Man In Space. It
>> is
>> also a treaty, the Outer Space Treaty. "Space is the province of all
>> mankind." "The activities of non-governmental entities. . . shall require
>> authorization and continuous supervision by the appropriate State Party
>> to
>> the Treaty." The simplest definition of totalitarian state is:
>> Everything,
>> every activity, everything whatsoever, is prohibited except that which is
>> specifically permitted (authorized and continuously supervised) by the
>> State. An Iron Curtain of such magnitude and coverage maintained, however
>> weak and vulnerable it, itself, might be to eventual tearing down,
>> produces
>> and proliferates innumerable iron curtains, and even innumerable iron
>> curtains within innumerable iron curtains, throughout its coverage area,
>> each and all of them without a single exception being utterly invincible
>> (utterly impossible to penetrate even by the State the created the one
>> Iron
>> Curtain). Those innumerable, utterly implacable and indestructible, inner
>> iron curtains are each and every one of them the 'unintended
>> consequences'
>> of putting up just the one Iron Curtain enclosing seven billion humans
>> into
>> this one world to impose, to force, One World upon them all.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > The mathematics is clear on this issue, humanity is destined
>> >> > to swim in beauty. The horrors of history are largely a
>> >> > frame of reference mistake and a connectivity issue.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I don't know what to make of this. It almost looks as if you being
>> >> sarcastic, or, if not, it appears you're forgetting the systemic sugar
>> >> factor, as in mainlining pure sugar. Power corrupts. Super power
>> >> corrupts
>> >> superbly. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. You can't turn mass,
>> >> energy,
>> >> or any other kind of power inwardly to and upon itself without
>> >> uncontrollably infinitizing unintended consequences, nor can you turn
>> >> humanity or any other life inwardly to and upon itself without doing
>> >> the
>> >> same.
>> >
>> >
>> > Not sarcastic at all. The complexity sciences are, at heart, the
>> > mathematics of nature or evolution. Utopia is a process based
>> > on nature, not a final state or object. The question should be
>> > if we are moving towards or away from a world governed
>> > by evolutionary processes?
>> >
>>
>> Let me define "evolution" in my view--as simply as I can. Evolution of
>> structure. Evolution of complexity. Tools that make the tools, that make
>> the
>> tools, that make the tools. . . Structure that makes structure, that
>> makes
>> structure, that makes structure. . . Life forms (complex structures) that
>> produce life forms (complex structures), that produce life forms (complex
>> structures), that produce life forms (complex structures). . . Layer by
>> layer, by layer, by layer. Stage by stage, by stage, by stage. Ring by
>> ring,
>> by ring, by ring, from farthest inside moving outward. Or, from a
>> different
>> dimensional look of the inside the same thing, inside or within the "tree
>> of
>> life", the "pyramid of life", each succeeding level producing the next
>> level
>> above it in which it and every level below it will be integral to
>> sustaining
>> any constant of symmetry and stability.
>
>
>
> You mention fractal self-similarity. This is a crucial science in
> understanding niche-filling in the abstract. But what I see in the
> above is a fundamental mistake with the frame of reference.
>
> Niche-filling takes place through downward causation, not
> upward. The system must come first and niche filling
> later. For fractal self similarity to occur the system must
> attain self organized criticality first. Once it does then, and only
> then, structure moves into the adjacent possible....into
> every other scale in both directions. Once the fractal
> filling is complete then emergent system properties
> appear. Such as a large evolutionary step. And
> this creation follows a power-law distribution, many
> small steps, and a few very large steps.
>
> The whole/system comes first, the parts later.
>

  You couldn't be more wrong. In youth the lower dynamic starts the
production of the next higher dynamic. By the time the lower dynamic
achieves niche status, the higher dynamic is in the fullness of its youth.
As Michio Kaku indicated in his book "Hyperspace" (one of the few things
he's ever put forth I can identify with), humanity has grown a million fold
in size in the last two-million years, but more, much more, humanity as in
that same time increased its energy (its access to usable energy), its
powers, its complexity, its reach (average per every man, woman, and child
living), two-million fold. The crying needs of this even more dynamic
structure--for at least one-million of those two-million years in incubation
(conceived and inevitable the very moment Man achieved fire and tools;
rising to the n-th level with achievement of nuclear fire)--is akin to the
crying needs of an unborn child in the due time of birth out of its Old
World into New Frontiers it is detined for and fully ready to be born into.

> STUART A. KAUFFMAN
> LECTURE 5
> PRELIMINARY STATEMENT OF A CANDIDATE "LAW"
> http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/People/kauffman/Lecture-5.html
>
>
>
>>
>> I've studied this thoroughly and given it long and hard thought. Once a
>> level, any level including our own, begins to output structure vastly
>> greater and far more complex than any individual of its own level, that
>> level is reaching its niche phase in life. It is reaching its niche place
>> in
>> the Universe at large and the vast and ever more complex structure it has
>> built, and is ever building, continues evolution--proceeding to mature,
>> to
>> expand and grow and evolve, until it does the same as every level below
>> its
>> level did before it. But every level, from level up through every level
>> extant, continuously participates symbiotically in its own way throughout
>> the entirety of the pyramid, all the energies and synergistics of the
>> whole
>> pyramid from bottom to top, top to bottom, side to side, sustaining
>> constant
>> the symmetry and stability of the whole structure of pyramid pyramiding
>> (maintaining constant, absolute, its fractal self-similarity throughout
>> all
>> progression). For all life within all the life, within all the life, it
>> is
>> like living inside a titanically massive living energy building, all the
>> life within at every level constantly going about its own affairs at all
>> times while the overall building itself constantly continues to add to
>> itself countless new rooms (or spaces; or frontiers)--so to speak--from
>> the
>> very small to the very vast; multiplying in ever greater overall
>> dimensions,
>> new and inconceivable energies, powers, complexities, and reaches:
>> increasing frontier, opportunity, survivability, prosperity and just
>> plain
>> immortality--species relative of course rather than any individual--for
>> every level of it from the founding level (always remaining the
>> foundation;
>> the base) all the way up through all levels above it.
>
>
> Think of emergent system properties as a vast expansion in
> possibility space. Where the creation goes from the top
> of the old fitness hill, to the bottom of a ...new hill with
> possibilities not knowable or predictable from the
> an examination of the components.
>
> The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, the missing
> quantity is forever mysterious to the components as it
> occupies a completely different attractor basin.
> Market forces for example, they are real and have
> tangible effects. But I dare you to place a market
> force on a table and stick it with a fork.
>
> Such emergent properties are primary driving forces
> yet only exist when the system is operating and whole.
> Deconstruct the system to 'examine' the emergent
> force and it immediately disappears into thin air.
>
> This explains the seeming contradiction with the duality
> of light, for example, the minute you attempt to observe
> the system generating the force is frozen into its static
> and chaotic components....it suddenly becomes either
> a particle or a wave. When the system is whole it
> is both at the same time. Emergent properties cannot
> be 'determined' as a physicist would like to do.
>
> Dark energy and matter is no different than a market
> force imo. Once the universe becomes matter dominated....
> once it attains a certain level of critical order...suddenly
> and mysteriously a new and invisible force appears.
>

  Yeh, external gravity or the gravity of the whole of all constituents
lifted to a plane of universal 'whole' outside each and every possible
integral 'constituent' gravity. Not "new" force at all needed and definitely
not "invisible." It is hyper-visible in the time picture and mistook to be
expansion, particularly accelerating expansion, of the space and time of the
Universe. An infinite Universe does not evolve! A Universe that carries a
zero balance of time does not evolve! And gravity alone, existing in two
planes of it permanently, forever, opposing (local-point-horizon
'constituent' and remote-global-horizon 'whole' Universe) like the two
(2-dimensional in this case) plates of Casimir's effect, can between them
force-create four dimensions of space (length, width, height, and depth) at
every even infinitesimal point whatsoever of the Universe. Infinitesimal
(point-singularity), and infinite (global-singularity), consequent
infinities (plural) and universal constancy (universal constants), are all
four exactly equal--fractal self similar--dimensions of the dimension, and
realm, of infinity.

  The Universe being infinite, if it is infinite as it should be, implies
infinite in everything extant, thus "infinities (plural)" being one of four
dimensions of infinity. This means infinite in mass as well as everything
else of mass including massed-space, just as Einstein envisioned things
would be in his imaginary trip to the speed of light. But, he did not think
to realize infinity would, and does, collapse into infinite numbers, ways,
shapes, and forms of relative and universally constant horizons from
infinity's always 'radical extreme' accumulations of complexity and chaos
(especially including 'radical extreme' accumulations of quantum complexity
and chaos--deja-vu, "fractal self-similarity"). One action horizon is to
gain relativity to somewhere or something, the equal but opposite reaction
horizon being to lose relativity to somewhere else or something else. But
you can never lose relativity to "now" (0) (Universal Mean Time or the real
time of the Universe) anywhere in the infinite Universe no matter how fast
you travel or how far you go, or how many horizons you pass through.

  The speed of light is about 300,000 kilometers of space per second of
time, about 10 trillion kilometers of space per year of time, about 13.7
billion times 10 trillion kilometers of space per 13.7 billion years of
time, about 78 billion times 10 trillion kilometers of space per 78 billion
years of time. Cosmologists estimate the size of the Universe and the age of
the Universe now--per expansion and accelerating expansion--to be about
either 13.7 billion times 10 trillion kilometers of space per 13.7 billion
years, or 78 billion times 10 trillion kilometers of space per 78 billion
years, or expansion and acceleration of expansion of the Universe never
more, nor never less than, the speed of light. The time of day at the speed
of light is flat zero. The time of eternity at the speed of light is flat
zero. The time of a multidimensional infinity at the speed of light is flat
zero. The time of the infinite Universe at the speed of light is flat zero.
Universal Mean Time (UMT) of "here and now," and "there and now," anywhere
and everywhere here and now, or there and now, is in the infinite Universe
is flat zero. We can't reach zero: we can't observe space, not any space
whatsoever. Nor can we ever observe 'real-time'. The speed of light, the
speed of time, always mandates, absolutely mandates, that there will always
be some time, even the smallest fraction of a second between the time of the
smallest closest event of any larger event we observe and the next [even the
smallest fraction of a second] that has passed in the meantime at that
distance, however close or far, toward the real-time of the entire Universe
(the UMT of the Universe). We can only observe some time-frames of some
histories among an infinity of such histories in such time-frames. And even
in those we can only observe them if they are within a certain narrow range
of frequencies of [virtual] time relative to us: relative to our position
[and] our velocity.

  There is one overpowering, overriding, reason why no one anywhere can ever
travel back in time. It is because light travels, and time advances,
forward, precisely at the same time, this way: Srce=Source propagator of
change and light--per frame's and light's travel toward any eye or other
instrumentation of the observer, Obsvr=Observer, c=change, t=time:

Srce(c1)t1 Obsvr(c1)t1
Srce(c2) t2, t1 Obsvr(c2)t2
Srce(c3)t3, t2, t1 Obsvr(c3)t3
Srce(c4)t4, t3, t2, t1 Obsvr(c4)t4
Srce(c5)t5, t4, t3, t2, (t1)Obsvr(c5)t5

  Not even Kip Thorne, from what I read, could solve the causality problem.
That is because he and just everyone else believes light and time to run
this way below: BB=Big Bang, or any source propagator of light and time in
the Universe:

BB(c1)t1,Obsvr(c1)t1
BB(c1)t1, (c2)t2, Obsvr(c2)t2
BB(c1)t1, (c2)t2, (c3)t3, Obsvr(c3)t3
BB(c1)t1, (c2)t2, (c3)t3, (c4)t4, Obsvr(c4)t4
BB(c1)t1, (c2)t2, (c3)t3, (c4)t4, (c5)t5, Obsvr(c5)t5

  Notice how the observer is being pushed out by light, space, and time.
Notice how there is no advancement in time at the other end of the Universe
from the Observer. Notice how there is no space in the Universe except at
the observer's end of the Universe. Notice how light, space, and time, are
all a solid 'rod', a solid texture or rubber band ribbon of space-time, or
'dark energy' force, telescoping away from the Big Bang, and away from every
other source of any other event ever in the Universe (thus the theory of the
'Big Rip' coming). Notice why neither Kip Thorne nor any other adherent of
Relativity as it has been and still is simply can't find anyway at all to
solve the nagging causality problem. Space, time, and light in the Universe
can't work both ways. In a room sitting across a distance from a light bulb
on, I am not being pushed away from it. The room is not expanding simply
because I turned on a light in the room. But if I advance toward it, or
advance toward anything whatsoever anywhere whatsoever, I will advance
toward it, at any velocity including infinite velocity, per my illustration,
Obsvr(c5)t5 to Srce(c5)t5 per the light-time frame route I laid out above. I
will never travel, either in this room, or in the Universe at large,
space-time per the second light travel and time advance illustration. Yet
that second illustration is exactly how Stephen Hawking in his "A Brief
History of Time" talks that we could travel the Universe--traveling back in
time of the Universe. If it doesn't work close up that way, it doesn't work
far away that way either. Stephen Hawking and the rest tell us they can see
the Universe, no matter the place (space), no matter the time (then-now). As
I illustrate in my first illustration, no they can't observe place (space).
No they can't observe the "now" of any other place in any space they are in,
nor of any other place in the Universe they are in, nor of any event in any
particle accelerator that has any space-time at all existing either between
event and detection instrumentation or intrinsically within the space of the
event itself or within the space of the detection instrumentation itself.

  They can't get down to ground zero time "now," real-time zero "now," or
universal mean time zero "now," of the infinite Universe they are in:
precisely the same time zero, exactly the same time zero, indivisibly the
same time zero, as 'time is zero' at the speed of light.

  Close up to anywhere, infinitesimally close up to anywhere, we can get
close enough to it as that "close enough" to be indistinguishable from
zero--though not, never, zero. We can't reach it. We will travel past (-t) -
future (+t) toward "now" (0) in time in just crossing a room in our home. We
would, will, travel past (-t) - future (+t) toward "now" (0) in crossing any
distance in space whatsoever in the Universe. We will advance past (-t) -
future (+t) toward "now" (0) in just sitting in our arm chairs, or laying in
our beds, asleep on Earth, thinking, believing, assuming, we are not
traveling in any direction whatsoever to anywhere. An illusion. We are going
somewhere as the surface of the Earth rotates on its axis at velocity, as
the Earth orbits the Sun at velocity, as the Solar System tracks through the
Milky Way galaxy at velocity, as the Milky Way travels through the
'space-now' constant of the Universe at velocity--not the 'space-then',
never the space-then--of the Universe.

  The least understood, as well least calculable, dimension of space is the
fourth, unmentioned fourth in Relativity, depth, or deep space. All four
dimensions of space are either caused or have afinity with two planes of
gravity, equally. But depth, deep space, points to either, and to both,
opposing poles (point-singularity and global-singularity) of gravity the
most. It isn't ever the length of space, nor the width of space, nor the
height of space, that is ever traveled. It is the fourth dimension, the
depth dimension of space that is always traveled; will ever be traveled by
anything or anyone in any kind of motion whatever, at any velocity and/or
acceleration in velocity whatever, traveling. The other three dimensions
will be with the fourth; and they just may be variable. All three will be
gained in gaining relativity to somewhere or something. All three will be
lost in losing relativity to somewhere else or something else. The fourth,
depth, will never be gained nor lost. This is the way I perceive things to
be in spreading out somewhat from my fundamental premise, as long as every
bit of that spreading wraps back to the fundamental premise. As long as all
of can be seen by me to self-similar wtih, to, the fundamental premise. If I
can't see what, where, how, and why it does and should, no matter how
trivial some deviation or separation from self-similarity might seem, it
would be wrong, thus the whole premise would be wrong, and I have to start
from scratch all over again. But no longer, after all these years of trial
and error and starting all over again, do I have to go back to scratch. I've
gained self-similarity throughout the whole of all the pictures of the
Universe I've presented and described, including that of life.

> An emergent force. Dark energy and matter will be
> invisible..to determistic or reductionist science forever.
>
> But from a complexity view its trivial. We will never
> directly know dark energy and matter any more
> than an animal will know intelligence. As an emergent
> property is in another world...a different basin of
> attraction not describable in part terms.
>

  Yes we can know. Gradual loss of relativity to us going away (fade away)
to complete loss of relativity to us with regard to time, motion, position
or velocity, or all of these possibly together or interchangeably. Gain
relativity to whatever it is, however the gain, lose the dark in the dark.

>
>>
>> Corner this complex structure production, this "evolution," on Earth
>> and
>> that which did the cornering will over time warp it malignantly
>> eventually,
>> destabilizing it throughout every level and dimension of it until it
>> collapses in on itself and the founding and first levels of it have to
>> start
>> the whole process all over again--that is, providing the Universe at
>> large
>> gives this lesser pyramid the vast time it needs to spread out again and
>> level up all over again to the production of another species level that
>> will
>> this time take it on out and up to the vaster space, time, mass, and
>> energy,
>> dimensions and environments it will need to continue to infinity what it
>> fundamentally exists for, fractal self-similar "deja-vu all over again."
>> Everything else is bonus; is reward.
>
>
> Evolution, due to power law instability, certainly goes in fits and
> starts.
> But there is one crucial aspect that you've apparently missed.
>
> These self-organizing tendencies are not limited to living systems.
>
> WHAT??? You may say.
>
> Complexity science can be applied to any complex adaptive
> system whether material, living or intellectual...even emotional.
> Since the math is built on the connections between things, not
> what things ...are. Since it uses a holistic or system frame
> instead of building from system specific parts.
>
> This may seem a minor point, but when it first dawned on
> me that physical systems evolve...in the Darwinian sense, it
> changed everything.
>
> It means the universe inevitably evolves that ideal conditions
> for life to evolve. It means life and intelligence is mathematically
> certain. The final probable state, the most likely state in the
> universe is to find the solutions needed to attain self organized
> criticality....niche-filling...and never ending emergent properties.
>
> This 'creative' force is inherent to the universe, it is pervasive
> and relentless. Once may then ask some simple questions.
> What system properties and conditions are needed to produce
> the next great emergent step?
>
> The needed conditions are to connect massively and in parallel
> the minds of humanity. The next step is a collective intelligence
> and wisdom some may call God.
>

  The last paragraph here I in no way will agree with. Again I think I see
you to be dismissing out of hand diversity in humans. I mean alien, all the
way to totally alien (as in matter / anti-matter nature), differences in
humans and human groups. Otherwise, as part of what I described above, life
also infinite in an infinite Universe, again divided by horizons. Somewhere
in the Universe life is just beginning on some worlds. Elsewhere in the
Universe dinosaurs are walking a world, as they walked this one millions of
years ago. Somehwhere else in the Universe Neanderthals are living in caves
in some worlds, just as they once lived in caves in this world. Somewhere in
the Universe an Earth-like planet is just forming as a cohesive, or
coherent, planet. Elsewhere in the Universe, an Earth-like planet is in
oldest age, dying, all life gone from it one way or another. Somewhere in
the Universe "humans" just like us are living and traveling interplanetary
space, or interstellar space, or intergalactic space, or even inter-universe
space (conversion or translation to time: traveling a 'Multiverse' with
regard to time-histories, past-futures, as described above today). Some of
these things may be in existence or occurrence within our own relative
horizon of universe, the only piece (an infinitesimal piece at that) of an
infinite Universe we observe any part of. For the rest, we would have to
travel through all kinds of different horizons of relativity, space, time,
position, velocity, acceleration, and so on, far beyond relativity to the
Earth, below relativity, above relativity, outside relativity to the Earth
in whatever way, before we could gain relativity to them.

>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > The internet is solving those problems as we speak, the
>> >> > world is transforming...itself ..now. No longer being
>> >> > held back by human foolishness but is in the hands
>> >> > of the great masses....Nature is taking over.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I was in the information processing and technology field for over
>> >> thirty
>> >> years. I was in on the ground floor of internet development,
>> >> literally,
>> >> in
>> >> Air Force Systems Command during my career in the Air Force. I know
>> >> what
>> >> the
>> >> core physicality of the net is and it is not in the hands of the
>> >> masses
>> >> by
>> >> any means. Be that as it is, the internet is an utterly unhealthy
>> >> body,
>> >> brain, time and wealth wasting addiction for the great majority of
>> >> people
>> >> as
>> >> much as it is simply another communications and information tool in
>> >> the
>> >> toolbox for the rest. Concerning information, there is as much or more
>> >> misinformation and disinformation on the net as there is information.
>> >> And
>> >> nothing has changed concerning human gullibility. Nothing exercises
>> >> humans
>> >> mentally, emotionally, and physically as much as harsh tests and hard
>> >> lessons. The internet provides for neither, just the opposite.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I couldn't disagree more. The internet is providing massive parallel
>> > connectivity, it is removing the artificial walls that have been the
>> > source of most human conflict. The internet represents freedom
>> > and diversity, the most essential aspects to initiate a self
>> > organizing system...nature. The internet is analogous to the
>> > second law, providing the complexity and interaction for
>> > the fourth law....self-organization.
>> >
>> > The government/corporations may own the network. But they
>> > cannot control its use. I know ways to speak on the internet
>> > even if the NSA had a hard-on for me. There are a few
>> > ngs that have tested this statement for several years now.
>> > The government lost even with bin-Laden like
>> > efforts to silence them.
>> >
>> > Freedom is the key to establishing nature/utopia on earth.
>> > We have that freedom now, and it's electronic tentacles
>> > have become relentless.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Define "freedom" for me
>
>
>
> Freedom, the kind needed for evolution, would be each
> component connected in parallel to every other. But
> with a non-integer or fractal connectivity that is midway
> between the system specific possibility space. Or more simply
> a complex level of connectivity. Each component not
> connected fully to the others, or too loosely.
>
> For example, a cloud. With too high connectivity it's a puddle.
> With too low it's a gas. But in this intermediate or complex
> realm it's both at the same time. Trajectories intractably
> entangled in phase space so that once can't tell if it's behaving
> as a particle or a wave. This is a fundamental property of
> organized systems, the parts behave chaotically yet the
> whole is organized.
>
> This highlights the futility of using reductionsm and determinism...
> classical means...to analyze real world or natural systems/reality.
> As the components are moving chaotically and the fractal niche
> filling is infinitely nested.
>
> Reality is understood by expanding to the whole first, by looking
> at the output first. But one can't measure a cloud or predict
> it's future exactly...only guess it. So you see, a deeper
> understanding of reality must pass first through the greatest
> scientific instrument of the known universe....our eyes
> and minds.
>
> Through subjective methods. Objective methods destroy
> emergent properties, which are the most important
> of all. Objective methods leave us ignorant and concluding
> that nothing can truly be 'known'.
>
> By simply reversing the primary frame of classical methods.
> By looking at the system first, the parts later. And by
> looking at what systems /do/, not what parts are.
> We can transform the uncertainty principle into
> complete certainty. A mathematical certainty that
> life, intelligence...even God will evolve.
>
>
> Life is most certainly not a fluke.
>
> The universe is most certainly full of life and intelligence.
>
> God most certainly exists, or will.
>

  I hate to tell this, but you did not describe freedom. You poetically
described a paradisic totalitarian communism: the "herd theory of all
mankind" and the "field theory of all life." You simply projected your own
personal dream up to enclose of all of us in it. That isn't freedom, it is
as close to one-dimensionality as one can get. I try in every way I can to
get out myself when I describe freedom, besides everything else I've
described, so as not to project myself into, through and over the picture
skewing it all to heck. I am a tyrant (as most old hands around this
newsgroup know) and I admit it to myself as I do to all, which is why I
implacably want that frontier door opened either for others' escape from me,
or my escape from them. I'd even let potential Hitlers, Stalins, Maos, Pol
Pots, Idi Amins, Attilas, Timur the Lames, Vlad the Impalers, the Devil
himself, escape so that also slaves would at least have the chance of
escaping whatever Utopia the aforementioned would set up in space. I'd even
let John Kerry and the Clintons and Gores, and Kennedys, escape. None of
them would want anyone to escape their paradises, period, but I would let
them escape mine. I would let anyone escape through that frontier door, so
that I could if and when I wanted or needed to. Giving freedom means giving
unconditional freedom, except to [known] murderers, rapists, and the like
who've been caught and tried and convicted and imprisoned. Unconditional
frontier opening and freeing for 'Exodus' is a "come what may of it" thing.
I'm very different from the [anti-human human] stereo-type "all mankind," I
mean different in the extreme (!), and I expect there are billions more in
this world like me.

>
>
>
>
>
>>in a shrunken and artificially closed state of
>> world artificially isolated from more than half the world itself, as that
>> more than half being designated by the One World State the "common
>> heritage
>> of all mankind," as well it being isolated from the entire Universe at
>> large
>> as space being the "province of all mankind" (deja-vu, the "common
>> heritage
>> of all mankind"). "The government can do for the people only in
>> proportion
>> as it can do to the people." -- Thomas Jefferson. "Rights" production on
>> a
>> world class assembly line until there are no more rights. "Freedoms"
>> production on a world class assembly line until there is no more freedom.
>> "Environmentalism" cornering freedom into tighter and ever tighter
>> corners.
>>
>> From The Lessons of History, by Will Durant: "Nature smiles at the
>> union
>> of freedom and equality in our utopias. For freedom and equality are
>> sworn
>> and everlasting enemies, and when one prevails the other dies. Leave men
>> free, and their natural inequalities will multiply almost geometrically,
>> as
>> in England and America in the nineteenth century under [laissez-faire].
>> To
>> check the growth of inequality, liberty must be sacrificed, as in Russia
>> after 1917. Even when repressed, inequality grows; only the man who is
>> below
>> the average in economic ability desires equality; those who are conscious
>> of
>> superior ability desire freedom; and in the end superior ability has its
>> way. Utopias of equality are biologically doomed . . . A society in which
>> all potential abilities are allowed to develop and function will have a
>> survival advantage in the competition of groups. This competition becomes
>> more severe as the destruction of distance intensifies the confrontation
>> of
>> states.
>>
>> "The third biological lesson of history is that life must breed. Nature
>> has
>> no use for organisms, variations, or groups that cannot reproduce
>> abundantly. She has a passion for quantity as prerequisite to the
>> selection
>> of quality . . . She is more interested in the species than in the
>> individual, and makes little difference between civilization and
>> barbarism.
>> She does not care that a high birth rate has usually accompanied a
>> culturally low civilization, and a low birth rate a civilization
>> culturally
>> high; and she (here meaning Nature as the process of birth, variation,
>> competition, selection, and survival) sees to it that a nation with a low
>> birth rate shall be periodically chastened by some more virile and
>> fertile
>> group. Gaul survived against the Germans through the help of Roman
>> legions
>> in Caesar's days, and through the help of British and American legions in
>> our time. When Rome fell the Franks rushed in from Germany adn made Gaul
>> France; if England and America should fall, France, whose population
>> remained almost stationary through the nineteenth century, might again be
>> overrun."
>>
>> It is being overrun now by massive invasion, massive immigration, from
>> Islamic states. And these adherents of Islam are growing in fury within
>> France over France's growing Socialist restrictions (constrictions)
>> concerning them and their religious and cultural practices. It is the
>> same
>> almost everywhere in the EU. Europe, stripped by state Socialism of
>> history
>> (thus lessons of history), tradition, religion, moral and responsible
>> base--walls if you will--has turned to nothing but formless jelly and is
>> destabilizing fast throughout most of its states. So is South America,
>> and
>> so is Africa, and so are the United States and Canada, if one bothers to
>> observe what is going on with a knowledgeably competent background in the
>> right variety of fields to do so.
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > As a result we are destined to swim in beauty. This
>> >> > is a mathematical fact I can prove if you care to
>> >> > discuss the issue seriously. Until you understand
>> >> > the mathematics of evolution and its tendencies, you
>> >> > don't understand reality or our future probable
>> >> > state.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I've answered this above in two arenas, but those answers apply.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > An Introduction to Complex Systems
>> >> > Torsten Reil, Department of Zoology, University of Oxford
>> >> > http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quee0818/complexity/complexity.html
>> >> >
>> >> > "Research therefore focused on NK Models in the complex
>> >> > 2egime, with K=2 (and more finely tuned using the p parameter).
>> >> > The fitness landscapes of these networks are somewhere in
>> >> > between the fully random one, and the "Fujijama" landscape.
>> >> > There is an intermediate number of fitness peaks - and these
>> >> > were found to have very interesting properties: "
>> >> >
>> >> > "First, the highest peaks are close to another, they form a
>> >> > cluster on the fitness landscape: "
>> >> >
>> >> > "Explanation
>> >> > The reason for this phenomenon is not known yet."'
>> >> >
>> >> > "Nor is that for another feature: the highest peaks form the largest
>> >> > basins of attraction. In other words, if you start on some random
>> >> > point in the fitness landscape, you are more likely to walk up one
>> >> > of the highest peaks than a lower one."
>> >> >
>> >> > "As just mentioned, these phenomena have so far defied mathematical
>> >> > analysis, however they have many potential implications for real
>> >> > evolution: Kauffman suggest that these results apply to biological
>> >> > networks as well. If this was true, then there is some order in real
>> >> > fitness landscapes that was not anticipated by biologists. Organisms
>> >> > may be attracted to the highest fitness peaks more likely than to
>> >> > low ones, because a) they provide the largest attractor basins,
>> >> > and b) they are located close together. Evolutionary biologists
>> >> > have started to become interested in this idea, for it may provide
>> >> > insights as to why animals seemingly evolve efficiently to high
>> >> > fitness states and not get stuck on poor local ones."
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> If you know anything about the science of complexity and theory of
>> >> chaos,
>> >> and I know more about them than most, then you know that you can't
>> >> predict
>> >> how much waste room you will need to manuever, nor how much waste
>> >> margins
>> >> you will need for error, nor how much tolerance and intolerance you
>> >> will
>> >> need in a life class, a world class, or Universe class, system.
>> >
>> >
>> > You have little faith. The primary quality of complex adaptive
>> > systems is that they converge on the best solution ...all by
>> > themselves. We don't need to find the solutions, we need
>> > to provide the proper levels of freedom and connectivity
>> > to allow the network to evolve.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I've answered this, above. "Little faith"? Open the door to the
>> Universe
>> and I will have all the faith there is in the Universe. Keep that door
>> closed, keep the Earth a world-class concentration camp ("Serfdom" means
>> states pinning humans to the earth, and it also means states pinning
>> humans
>> to the Earth), and I can prophecy doom until doomsday and the
>> world--overall--will strictly adhere to my prophecy. It seems I've been
>> interested in and have studied in, and have thought in, all the required
>> fields necessary to perceive the overall event picture in all the many
>> necessary dimensions of it.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Also you
>> >> must know that tyrannical systems have survived in being throughout
>> >> the
>> >> ages
>> >> just as long as freer systems. Both are still around. And both will
>> >> continue
>> >> to stay around. There will be balance to nature. Any imbalancing will
>> >> build
>> >> opposing forces to balance.
>> >
>> >
>> > A dictatorship is a wall, a small section of forest cut-off from the
>> > whole. As hard as they may fight to remain rigid they cannot
>> > survive for long in the face of the Congo. The walls are falling.
>> > The internet is creating a stronger whole from a quilt of isolated
>> > and diseased commercial forests. Democracy/nature is destined
>> > to win.
>> >
>>
>> Not in the least I'd say.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>For most action (I hesitate to say "for every
>> >> action") there will be an equal but opposite reaction. We are an
>> >> aware,
>> >> complex, species specifically because we are so much a diverse species
>> >> internal to our species. We've been fitted by nature for survival by
>> >> being
>> >> fitted by nature for entrance into the Universe at large rather than
>> >> eventually adhering to any one niche system on Earth. We are "spatial"
>> >> beings, not 'one world', 'one system', beings, therefore we will
>> >> either
>> >> conquer space or we kill each other for space: And the amount of space
>> >> each
>> >> of us needs is relative to the individual and can never be
>> >> systematically
>> >> calculated and rationed out to the individual by the state.
>> >
>> >
>> > But it is the rigid structure/dictatorship imposed on a natural system
>> > ....society...that is the heart of all conflicts. The interests
>> > of the natural system drifts/adapts over time, while the imposed
>> > rigid structure doesn't. So stress inherently builds within
>> > non-democratic/non-adaptive governments. It's the idea we can
>> > out-design nature and impose fixed structures that is the
>> > source of confect/wars and most human horrors.
>> >
>> > Remove the walls and the world is transformed from negative
>> > to positive sum....utopia.
>> >
>>
>> Democracy develops rigor mortis over time. It goes far too far beyond
>> its
>> limitations after a while and then is gone just like that. Pfsst.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> In my case, and
>> >> in the case of a great many human 'Outsiders' like me, an infinite
>> >> amount
>> >> of
>> >> space would just about barely meet my requirements for space. Thus I
>> >> am
>> >> one
>> >> of those humans who in no way minds occupying an infinitesimal space
>> >> within
>> >> an infinite space, which is to say I would in no way mind occupying
>> >> the
>> >> space of a space suit, a space ship, a space station, or an O'Neill
>> >> colony,
>> >> within the vast space of the Universe itself. But just as I feel very
>> >> constricted, restricted, limited, claustrophobic, now here on Earth,
>> >> so I
>> >> would feel the same way on the Moon, on Mars, or on any other moon or
>> >> planet
>> >> in the entire Universe. I am not even close to being alone among
>> >> humans
>> >> in
>> >> sensing the Call of Infinity and feeling its gravitational tug at me.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "There is a solitude of space,
>> > A solitude of sea,
>> > A solitude of death, but these
>> > Society shall be,
>> > Compared with that profounder site,
>> > That polar privacy,
>> > A Soul admitted to Itself:
>> > Finite Infinity."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Utopian "evolution" of mankind is fool's gold trying to compete with
>> >> gold
>> >> by
>> >> comparison.
>> >
>> >
>> > Utopia for an individual lies simply in the understanding of
>> > natural processes. The goal is the thing, and nature its path.
>> >
>> >
>> > "There is another Loneliness
>> > That many die without,
>> > Not want or friend occasions it,
>> > Or circumstances or lot.
>> >
>> > But nature sometimes, sometimes thought,
>> > And whoso it befall
>> > Is richer than could be divulged
>> > By mortal numeral."
>> >
>> >
>> > Emily Dickinson
>> >
>> >
>> >> The disastrous error of the political-scientific state trying to
>> >> [most]
>> >> arrogantly and dictatorially redefine for all of us what is life, what
>> >> is
>> >> human and what is humanity (what is Man and what is Mankind), and what
>> >> the
>> >> future should be for all of us without exception--the prediction
>> >> adhering
>> >> to
>> >> Aldous Huxley's "A Brave New World" actually coming to pass--was made
>> >> back
>> >> in the late 1960s and early 1970s and has been steadily, relentlessly,
>> >> compounding in 'unintended consequences' ever since.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Wisdom is a collective property, as is the definitions of reality.
>> > The collective intelligence forming form the massive connectivity
>> > of the internet will redefine everything. And with a wisdom
>> > no one person can possible equal. Soon governments will
>> > be a reflection of us, not the other way around.
>> >
>>
>> Teh internet, like television before it, is doing brain drain. It is
>> dumbing down the masses.
>>
>> >
>> > An emergent system property is about to unfold. A collective
>> > wisdom and supreme intelligence with the power of creation.
>> > God comes at the /end/ of the evolutionary ladder, not the
>> > beginning.
>> >
>>
>> You've not read the Old Testament's first chapter have you? The fabled
>> part about the Babel of all mankind. Actually, the fable of Babel is the
>> third rendition within Genesis of mankind doing exactly the same thing,
>> Utopia (Greek for Nowhereland (u-topos: no place), Void, Vacuum,
>> Everythingness and Nothingness, no horizons, etc.), as if it will never
>> learn from God's punishments for doing it. 'Exodus' supposed tells the
>> story
>> of the fourth time men try it. The Apocalypse, Revelations, tells the
>> overall story about every time Man tries it (going for Utopia in place
>> rather than God's unlimited table of plenty, the Universe at large).
>> Though
>> I am not a Christian, Jew, or Islamic, or any other particular religion,
>> I've studied the Bible too among so many others and connected the wisdom
>> I've acquired from study from so many other sources with that wisdom of
>> the
>> ancients. The Hebrews weren't the only ancients by any means to have
>> those
>> same stories, though in differing settings.
>>
>> > The world is returning to nature, and She is not only
>> > testable, but worthy of reverence. There's no need
>> > for science and religion to be separate. They are both
>> > equally empty and in error when alone.
>> >
>>
>> In the last part of the above, I completely agree. Stephen Hawking
>> wrote
>> that he lamented the division of physics, cosmology and philosophy into
>> three different fields.
>
>
> The primary realms of behavior in the universe are the
> static, dynamic and chaotic.
>
> When a static and chaotic attractor are in an unstable
> equilibrium...at the edge of chaos...a dynamic attractor
> forms from them....and self organization/evolution/creation
> occurs.
>
> Using this frame such divisions are easy to resolve.
>
> The static realm is one of few variables and fixed/deterministic laws.
> The chaotic realm is of near infinite variables and statistical solutions.
> The dynamic realm is right in the middle. Not enough variables
> for a statistical treatment, but too many for classical mechanics.
>
>
> Static, dynamic and chaotic.
> Solid, liquid and gas.
> Classical motion, thermodynamics and quantum motion.
> Matter, light and energy
> Geology, biology and cosmology
> Genetics, selection and mutation
> Science, art and philosophy
> Body, mind and spirit.
>
> Truth, beauty and love.
>
> All these realms are now open to mathematical
> investigation...even art or our emotions.
> http://www.calresco.org/
>
>
> Remove any one realm of each paradigm, and
> the view is empty, incomplete and 'uncertain'.
>
> Only our eyes and minds can comprehend all three
> at once. Only subjective methods can understand
> reality. Prose and poetry is destined to be the
> scientific language of the future.
>
> Can you see complexity science is this poem. It's
> all there. From the rejection of reductionism, to
> the need to understand nature abstractly. Even
> the three realm paradigm of complexity science
> is there in "simplicity, harmony and heaven."
> Dear Emily was so far ahead of her time it
> may be generations before she's
> understood.
>
>
>
> NATURE is what we see,
> The Hill, the Afternoon-
> Squirrel, Eclipse, the Bumble-bee,
> Nay-Nature is Heaven.
>
> Nature is what we hear,
> The Bobolink, the Sea
> Thunder, the Cricket
> Nay,-Nature is Harmony.
>
> Nature is what we know
> But have no art to say,
> So impotent our wisdom is
> To Her simplicity
>
>
>
> By E Dickinson
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>

Brad