Re: Pioneer 10 test of light speed

From: George Dishman (george_at_briar.demon.co.uk)
Date: 01/05/05 

Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:01:19 -0000

Hi Ralph, Happy New Year.

Have you received my email reply to your message? It covers
all your questions plus instructions on the spreadsheet that
would just be spam if posted here. I got this yesterday:

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  ** THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY **
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The original message was received at Tue, 4 Jan 2005 00:14:45 GMT
from <my ip snipped>

----- Transcript of session follows -----
<r9ns@verizon.net>... Deferred: Connection timed out with relay.verizon.net.
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
Will keep trying until message is 5 days old

It looks as though your ISP has problems or is rejecting
mails from mine. I sent another copy but let me know if
you haven't received either yet and I'll try another ISP.

I'll some answers below that are appropriate for the
group.

<r9ns@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1104952926.467448.84830@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> George,
> It is interesting that in 30 years minute by minute of data from
> Pioneer 10 that there are no instances of two or three way quality
> received receptions at any site unless there was transmission at the
> same time from that reception site.

In the period from 3rd to 9th October 1987 that includes
the 6th and 7th that you analyse in your sheet, I cannot
see a single transmission from the receive site, and all
those from the transmit site are about 11h 30m earlier
than the corresponding reception. I cannot see any
transmission during a reception.

> We are way beyond these graphs which are not the least bit helpful.
> Look at good instances in your spreadsheets or mine of 87 receiver
> frequencies and transmitter frequencies minute by minute etc which can
> reveal the trajectory of the craft according to the nearly
> instantaneous model or the conventional model.
> http://mysite.verizon.net/r9ns/071087.xls
> The explanation is in the spacecraftdoppler.doc file.
> You said before that you did not think the formulas used here were
> correct but you did not say how they should be changed or why????

What I have said repeatedly is that you use the JPL
figures when you should be deriving them using your
own theory. I have also posted the equation for the
frequency which, if you differentiate twice, will
eliminate most of the unknowns. I am happy to show
you how to change the forulae and why but I can't do
it if you snip what I type every time.

> > I have spent several hours writing a spreadsheet that
> > lets you read any section of any file in the ATDF format
> > so that is no longer an excuse.
>
> Where is the spreadsheet. All I see are graphs.

The sheet is the link after the last graph.
http://www.georgedishman.f2s.com/Ralph/index.htm

> The spreadsheet
> should include the Receiver frequency for Oct 6 and 7 in 1987 like the
> list you showed for the same dates in 1988.

It contains the Doppler counter values but you need to
add the 1MHz offset, multiply by 48 (or was it 96?) and
add the exciter value to get the sky frequency. You said
the file was unreadable so i've given you something that
reads the ATDF format.

> But perhaps the pattern you
> found in 1988 does not occur in 1987???

The October period seems to have only transmissions from
antenna 12 which are received at antenna 63.

>> It is interesting that in 30 years minute by minute of data from
>> Pioneer 10 that there are no instances of two or three way quality
>> received receptions at any site unless there was transmission at the
>> same time from that reception site.
>
> You don't get it do you? The received frequency jumped
> to a new value while the site's exciter frequency stayed
> the same. That's because it was being used as the
> reference for the counters, the site wasn't transmitting.
>
> Why do you think the site was not transmitting? The received
> frequencies are always changing while the transmission frequency
> derived from the exciter frequency stays the same after an initial
> period of instability.

At the beginning and end of the reception around midnight
of the 6th, the receive frequency was changing at one rate.
In the middle, the frequency jumped to a new value and the
rate of change then roughly doubled. That tells me that the
lesser rate was that due to the receive site motion in one-
way mode. The higher rate was the sum of that rate with that
due to the doppler caused by the motion of the transmit site
while the craft was locked on to the uplink. After about
2 hours, there is another jump and the receive frequency
returns to the original curve, telling me the uplink had been
switched off and the craft reverted to the on-board oscillator

>> If we were not so brainwashed to believe that the speed of light
>> extrapolates beyond a second this would be a red flag to suggest that
>> maybe the speed of light does not extrapolate to distances beyond a
>> second.
>
>
> I warned you to be careful and note the difference in the
> X scales.
>
> What are you trying to say George? Spell it out.

The reception started at 21:42 on the 6th and ended at 02:27
on the 7th. It was in three way mode from 23:17 on the 6th
until 01:20 on the 7th.

>From Horizons, the light travel time was 345.6 minutes that
night.

There is a corresponding transmission from 11:33 to 13:47 on
the 6th from site 12.

Allowing for the sweep at the start of the transmission, these
times exactly match the transitions in the downlink behaviour.

George

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