Re: Pioneer Anomoly


John C. Polasek wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:33:38 +0100, "George Dishman"
> <george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >"John C. Polasek" <jpolasek@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >news:5fbdj198q5i6s0bidsjnlucl484d7vndem@xxxxxxxxxx
> >>
> >> Let's see if we can get this straight. The anomaly is strictly one of
> >> clock performance.
> >
> >That is your claim. Anderson et al say that it
> >appears the range has been affected implying
> >that there is a real acceleration, however, the
> >data is not sufficiently accurate to be certain
> >of that. Be that as it may, let's consider the
> >numbers for the possibility of a clock error.
> >
> >> This is of course a relief or we would be studying
> >> the planets to see why they have not strayed. There is not one iota of
> >> anomalous acceleration of the craft, so it just muddies the waters to
> >> argue red or blue shift nomenclature.
> >
> >The nomenclature is not significant but the
> >sense of the effect is.
> >
> >> I think we can agree that the arithmetic quoted in Turyshev produces a
> >> negative frequency difference implying that the reference clock has
> >> sped up to give the same negative frequency difference as I assert in
> >> the paper. That negative difference increases proportional to trip
> >> time. Can we agree on that?
> >
> >No. What is observed looks like an acceleration
> >towards the Sun. In other words the craft seems to
> >be leaving the solar system slower than expected.
>
> George, take another look at Turyshev,s formula. They take their
> frequency difference as the received frequency minus the sending
> frequency:
> Dnu = nu - nu0 <0,
> Without exception DNu is negative so the received signal is lower so I
> don't understand why you assert the opposite at the bottom of your
> note "No, the starting point is that the frequency received is higher
> than expected". Frequency increases as they proceed out of the well.

The reason I am telling you that is because this
question was discussed for many months some years
ago in the group and the sense was determined for
from comments in the Anderson paper. There was a
crank here at the time who also argued that the
shift was in the sense you claim and eventually it
got to the point where he mailed Slava Turyshev, one
of the authors. Slava confirmed that the measured
frequency is higher, not lower and they re-issued the
paper stating that the DSN convention which applies
to all their software and consequently their values
is that negative numbers represent increased frequency.
It is rather bizarre but that's the way they have
always done it.

> Markwardt in paper "Independent confirmation..." has a graph showing
> 1.55 hz over 4 years and another scale ~20 cm/s/4yr = 2Ap. So the
> valid acceleration would be 1.55Hz/8 years one way equal to 6e-9 hz/s
> as you said.

Craig Markwardt was the other person involved in
th previous discussions. He is working on data
analysis on the Swift mission. He obtained the
raw data for Pioneer 10 and analysed it himself
and found the same discrepancy as Anderson et al
and he also confirmed that it was a higher
frequency than was predicted.

Basically I am sying that we know without any doubt
the sense of the anomaly and it is the opposite of
what you are currently predicting.

<snip agreement of values>

> >Since that speed
>
> what speed?

You lost the previous context:
> >... In other words the craft seems to
> >be leaving the solar system slower than expected.

I am talking of the 12k/s speed at which the craft
was moving away from the Sun. Simple Doppler produces
a redshift of about 88kHz each way because of that.
An anomalous acceleration towards the Sun would reduce
that speed hence produce less redshift, in other words
the anomaly contributes a blueshift. Whether it is a
real acceleration or a clock effect is a separate
question but that fact that it _appears_ as if the
craft is being slowed means they must be seeing an
increased frequency, it was just a qualitative argument
based on their description whicvh lets you confirm that
the sense of the signal is as I said.

George

.

Relevant Pages

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