Re: Darwinian evolution=Armageddon?

From: Michael Ragland (ragland37_at_webtv.net)
Date: 06/27/04 

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:39:52 +0000 (UTC)

Assuming we continue to embrace design, the main possibilities for life
not consisting (in large part) of descendants of the human race in the
future would then look something like:
* Invasion by aliens too advanced to bother assimilating us;
* Failure to get off the planet before we run out of resources   (or
the sun explodes);
* Getting wiped out by our creations;
      * Getting wiped out by intelligent machines;
      * Getting wiped out by nanotechnology;
* Getting wiped out competitors/predators;
* Getting wiped out pathogens;
The only one of these that I reckon might constite a serious long-term
risk is the first one.

Tim Tyler

I agree with you Tim but your projecting way into the future when we
have embraced design and the main possibilities for life not consisting
(in large part) of descendants of the human race in the future. I
suppose you consider whether Homo Sapiens will destroy themselves is a
rather moot question but I believe it is this period of our evolution
when there is the greatest risk of doing so. My original question was
Darwinian evolution=Armageddon (permanent extinction no descendants to
be less biblical) if there is no genetic intervention. You haven't
exactly answered that. I gather you believe we will design ourselves and
I would take this as genetic intervention in Darwinian evolution.
Perhaps its a given to you we will design ourselves but time is running
out in the hourglass. There is a race between Darwinian evolution (or
are Darwinian nature and certain features which have been selected in
the past such as aggression) and scientific and technological advances
in genetics and genetic engineering and applying those advances to
humans on a widespead scale. My fear is before those advances and their
widespead application can occur the international political, social and
economic situation will worsen to the point where there will be more
nuclear war and the possibility of bio-warfare or mishaps. Depending on
the severity of these "possible" events it could plunge much of the
world into a sort of Dark Ages (much more dark than currently). It could
take many decades to even begin to come out of if...assuming we survived
as a species. Even without nuclear weapons or bio-warfare societies
could become more totalitarian and belligerant. Those are my concerns,
not after we have signifigantly embraced design. You know a movie was
made called "Planet of the Apes" but it just as well could have been
"Planet of the Humans".

Even though you and I are products of Darwinian evolution and possess
traits such as aggression which were selected in our evolutionary past I
believe it is possible for Homo Sapiens to begin to make the transition
to a designed species. That is because one of the traits of Darwinian
evolution is intelligence and if we use that intelligence in science I
believe we can gradually design ourselves. Ultimately this will result
in few descendants of Homo Sapiens and a new species (singular or
plural) will be created although the definition and meaning of species
has been contested in this context.

Wilkins has pointed out who will make these decisions in designing
ourselves. It's likely there will be many more genetic engineering
applications before the master genes for aggression have been discovered
and there are genetic engineering techniques to modify/remove
aggression. One possibility is to employ genetic engineering techniques
towards "racial ends". How this would exactly be done I don't have a
clue but it is a possibility. What if a country/government favored blond
hair and blue eyes (Germany, Britain, etc.) and encouraged or forced its
citizens to be genetically engineered to have blond hair and blue eyes?
It sounds absurd but then again Nazi Germany's ideas were absurd. The
difference here is where Nazi Germany attempted this on a very limited
basis with selective breeding of humans (which was not guaranteed or
precise and the results were negligible) with genetic engineering the
ratio of success would be much higher and arguably foolproof. Of course,
other ethnic groups would have to be marginalized and disenfranchised. I
personally would not want to live in a society like that. There has been
enough oppression over the centuries of various ethnic groups.

The point is that designing ourselves as a species need not really lead
to a genetic intervention in Darwinian evolution. Merely eliminating
genetic diseases or selecting traits such as eye color and hair color
aren't going to change our basic Darwinian nature which is based on
aggression, xenophobia, territoriality, competition, etc. There is a
danger we will not be socially and politically advanced enough and we
will use genetic engineering for reactionary purposes and goals (some of
the same purposes and goals which have been pursued for centuries) but
this time in a bright new package called genetic engineering.

There is also the fear of a "genetic underclass". Those individuals who
suffer from various genetic diseases (from which there is no cure) and
heavily discriminated by insurance companies. What happens when a
person's DNA becomes common property and that information is either
found out or sold to insurance companies, employers, etc.? There needs
to be a specific law that genetic discrimination is outlawed but that
won't totally protect DNA privacy or still prevent employers from
finding out about such information. And arguably the powerful insurance
lobby would fight tooth and nail to prevent any genetic discrimination
law which prevented them from outrageous premiums or denying coverage
for any genetic disease or predisposition they saw fit.

In another post I mentioned there is not even a national genetic
engineering regulatory body or a national genetic engineering research
regulatory body. I mentioned in France a scientist treated 11 boys with
immunodefinciency disorder with gene therapy. The gene therapy was
successful in all 11 cases but in two of the boys the gene therapy also
activated caner genes. The cancer was treated and it is in remission.
U.S. Congress decided to suspend 27 gene therapy experiments. That's who
makes these decision...Congress. There is a bioethics "advisory"
commission to the President but it is stacked with his appointees.

Michael Ragland

A professor asked a student, "If you had a choice between the oppressed
and the oppressor which would you choose." The student replied,
"Neither". The Professor shook his head and stated, "You don't have a
choice." The student paused and said, "The oppressed".

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