Re: Dawkins gives incorrect answer

From: Michael Ragland (ragland37_at_webtv.net)
Date: 08/24/04 

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 04:44:35 +0000 (UTC)

GH:
IMHO it is searching for observer-dependent information that is the
fool's errand, because it does not really exist. Objective information,
which I take to be essentially synonymous with structure or pattern,
does exist and can be observed with standardized devices and methods
(not dependent on the subjectivity of individuals). Now that is
something I think is worthy of a search.

Ragland:
Agree

GH:
The presence of an observer is besides the point because we recognize
that there is a difference between the data (the observed degree and
quality of a structure) and the meaning gleaned from the data by an
observer. IMHO we need to separate the theory of interpretation from the
theory of structural dynamics and signal detection.

Ragland:
Has the possibility occurred to you the observed degree and quality of a
structure observed with standardized devices and methods (not dependent
on the subjectivity of individuals) is capable of being altered by
observers? There is a difference between the data (the observed degree
and quality of a structure and the meaning gleaned from the data by an
observer but what meaning or "knowledge" is gleaned by observers can
possibly alter the observed degree and quality of a structure.
Therefore, I don't see how one can totally separate the theory of
interpretation from the theory of structural dynamics and signal
detection. If it is possible for the observer to alter structural
dynamics and signal detection I don't see how there can be a totally
separate theory of interpretation from a theory of structural dynamics
and signal detection.
 
GH:
I am sympathetic to saving the notion of information content as
something an observer defines, and I do think that a theory of
interpretation is very important.

Ragland:
Me too.

GH:
Perhaps the rest of us should write about structure and structural
dynamics and give up use of the term "information," but I think there is
already so much inertia in using "information" the way I do that such a
transition would be difficult to achieve.

Ragland:
Probably so.

WA:
Nicklas (1997) wrote in a recent issue of Science ("How cells get the
right chromosomes." Science, 275:632-637), "Selection extracts order
from disorder, music from noise."

GH:
This resonates nicely with a post I wrote recently (I think it was in
this thread), where I suggested that natural selection filters out
"dissonant" variation. To extent this metaphor, I was implying that
natural selection improves the "beauty" (coherence, structural
clarity,...) of the gene pool's "melody." It tends to remove poorly
articulated bits, removing obstacles from the evolutionary elaboration
of the well-articulated bits. [I am purposely using "bits" here in both
the colloquial and information theoretical ways. Hopefully, this is a
clever double-entendre and not a source of confusion.]

Ragland:
If the syrup got any thicker I would get sick.

WA:
The sentence is worth repeating: "Selection extracts order from
disorder, music from noise." The increasingly accurate extraction of
that constantly refined music underlies much of the directional bias in
the increasing complexity of life on this planet.

GH:
I couldn't agree more!

Ragland:
I don't think the process of selection is hardly "picturesque". And as
far as increasing complexity of life on earth natural selection will
take an awfully long time if left to its own devices.

"It's uncertain whether intelligence has any long term survival value.
Bacteria do quite well without it."
 Stephen Hawking

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Dawkins gives incorrect answer
    ... in article cgeh3j$u0s$1@darwin.ediacara.org, Michael Ragland at ... > The presence of an observer is besides the point because we recognize ... > theory of structural dynamics and signal detection. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Dawkins gives incorrect answer
    ... in article cgeh3j$u0s$1@darwin.ediacara.org, Michael Ragland at ... The presence of an observer is besides the point because we recognize ... theory of structural dynamics and signal detection. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
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