Re: No Grace Period for Metabolism Either

From: Erwin Moller (since_humans_read_this_I_am_spammed_too_much_at_spamyourself.com)
Date: 10/27/04 

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:25:47 +0000 (UTC)

TomHendricks474 wrote:

Hi again Tom.

This is getting a dayjob for us. :P

>>Lets see where we do agree on, ok?
>>
>>- somewhere in the past selfreplication started.
>
> No NO No - you might as well say somewhere in the past a full blown eagle
> came out of a cloud.

That is strange.
Did we now come to the point where you claim that we don't have
selfreplication right now?

Because if we do, then it must have started somewhere in the past.
That is what logic dictates...

> There is no reason for a replicator to start in your world.
> There is just no reason why that would help it better adapt and be more
> stable to its environement.
> You can't force things on molecules that have no advantage to anything
> (except in the future)

Yes I can.
If I have 2 molecules, a and b.
a) replicates itself
b) doesn't replicate itself

A little in the future I expect to have more a than b.
What do you excactly expect?

It is really not difficult and you don't even need stabality in this
equation.

If you add stability, the situation becomes only more complex, but still the
replicating variant will do better, unless of course you deliberately state
it is very unstable.
But that would be cheating, wouldn't it?

>
>>(Origin unknown to us: You expect that the sun/heat cycle leads to
>>selfreplication.
>
> No its the other way around.

The other way around?
So the selfreplication leads to the sun/heat cycle?
????
I am loosing it...

> Chemicals are not here to get to you or me or
> life.
> They reacted to what went befre - there was no mission to get to life!

I know that.

>
>
>
>
>>Tom: Those molecules that live another day.
>>Erwin: Those molecules that make more copies of themself than are lost.
>
> No no no - there is no advantage to their environment in replicating or
> turning purple or tasting like chocolate - and you refuse to give me some
> reason why that would in any way give an advantage to the father
> nucleotide or cell or whatever.

There is NO advantage at all!
NONE.
There we are.
I didn't claim that there are advantages for the parent.
You think I claim that, but I don't.

Molecules don't need 'advantages' or direction. I know that...

The only thing that I am claiming is that those who replicate themselfs will
be found in bigger numbers.

That is simple math/logic.

It is the very beginning of evolution.

>
>
>
>>If these early molecules had any 'purpose', it would be something that has
>>
>>to do with surviving.
>>I want to use that word with care, because H2O is appearantly very
>>succesfull in 'surviving', while it is just representing the lowest
>>energystate for H and O atoms.
>>
>>Two thing are important to surviving:
>>- Dont get destroyed yourself. (Toms' emphasizes this)
>
>>- Copying oneself and survive in that way. (If you make more copies than
>>are
>>destroyed, you'll survive.)
>
> No no no - you can't make up stuff that gives an advantage a million years
> down the line.

It gives an immediate result: A copy.

No milions years patience: immediate result.

What makes you say that?

> You can't use crystal balls to give me advantages.

I hope you understand I don't need that crystal ball.
Allthough I would love to have one and look back in time. :-)

> YOU want replication the molecules don't want anything.

indeed. agree.

>
>
>
> Tom Hendricks, Musea zine ed.
> http://musea.digitalchainsaw.com"
> http://www.hunkasaurus.com ( "30" - CD now available)
> Hunkasaurus & His Pet Dog Guitar
> Musea Review Service (see Musea)

Regards,
Erwin Moller

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