Re: Singing as prerequisite (or aid) to language.

> <EKurtz99@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
> If chorusing with grooming is more efficient than just grooming,
> primates that groomed and chorused would spend less time at it than
> pure groomers; ie G&C would provide an increase in fitness over pure
> G, since the G&C primates would have more time to forage, mate, etc.
> Most primates are vocal to some degree or other; why are there no
> G&C social primates?
>
Anthony Cerrato wrote:
> All great questions. I'd guess that after the invention and
> refined versions of C, it declined in favor of increased
> physical group social interactions and replacement of
> complex C by easier, more simplistic, grunts/hoots, etc. (to
> the specific limits on the physical constraints on singing
> /speech ability.)

Not sure I understand this; my point is simply that if chorusing is
more efficient than grooming in establishing and/or maintaining social
relations; and this efficiency conduces to fitness since it makes more
time available for foraging, mating, watching for predators etc; and
given that the behavior evolved once in our distant ancestors - why has
it not evolved again? Why do we not observe it anywhere in the primate
world?
Also, if chorusing were replaced by something better - "physical group
social interactions", why is there still grooming?

There is another problem: Presumably dyadic grooming rituals arose from
initially solitary grooming behavior, which the animal engages in
because it is pleasant, and offers relief from the irritation of
parasites. It is also likely that the pleasure of mutual grooming
between adults is related to the grooming of infants by their mothers;
this would explain its effect in lowering stress in the recipient.
I.e., social grooming is probably just another example of an already
evolved characteristic being co-opted for new purpose. But how would
chorusing evolve, given that there was initially nothing like it for
selection to work on? If a predisposition to communal singing arose by
mutation in a single individual, there would be no benefit to him since
the other primates would not respond. In fact, two characteristics
would have to evolve together and spread by chance throughout the
primate group: a predisposition to sing, and a reaction to singing that
resembled the existing reaction to grooming. That seems too unlikely to
be plausible. Does Dunbar offer an explanation?

The advent of refined social relations and
> cooperation replaced C in part with new interests and
> obligations.

Are you talking about humans or other apes and monkeys?

> What is the neurological or other evidence that
> music and speech are related? If a person becomes
> aphasic from a stroke, does that eradicate his ability
> to appreciate music?

Anthony Cerrato wrote:
> I don't think so. But they needn't be neurologically related
> to exhibit a co-evolutionary effect, do they?

I thought you were arguing that speech arose from singing after singing
displaced grooming.


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Singing as prerequisite (or aid) to language.
    ... >> If chorusing with grooming is more efficient than just ... >> primates that groomed and chorused would spend less time ... > chorusing evolve, given that there was initially nothing ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Singing as prerequisite (or aid) to language.
    ... He regards speech in ... >> arisen to take the place of grooming in other primates, ... > If music started as moronic chorusing, ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Singing as prerequisite (or aid) to language.
    ... He regards speech in humans as having ... > amount of time that a group of hominids would have to spend on grooming ... friction among primates, whereas speech is as likely to start trouble ... If chorusing with grooming is more efficient than just grooming, ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: pesticide allergy
    ... Fear of Snakes Drove Primate Evolution, ... of California, Davis, suggests that snakes and primates share a long ... focused on improving their vision to keep away from. ... forced snakes to evolve a new ...
    (rec.equestrian)
  • moore blabla (Re: Evidence, and scientific palatability
    ... if you evolve from a hominoid with apelike fur to one ... >> than apes. ... >> to other primates) large size we have a propensity for upright posture ... > fat and reduced body hair and says it's because of aquaticness, ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)