Re: Singing as prerequisite (or aid) to language.

"Glen M. Sizemore" <gmsizemore2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:d8n48e$18mp$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> The Skinnerian (i.e., correct) view would be that singing and verbal
> behavior ("language" sort of) arose at the same time. Indeed, both would
be
> verbal behavior by the Skinnerian definition. Simply put, all that is
> necessary is for the vocal musculature to come under control of operant
> contingencies. No doubt operant conditioning mechanisms were already
highly
> advanced (i.e., we were already "smart") when the necessary mutation made
> the vocal musculature "conditionable."

PIP: How smart do you mean? I confess that I am not particularly familiar
with Skinnerian jargon and theory, but it seems to me that a wide variety
of organisms have conditionable vocal musculature - songbirds, cetaceans,
wolves (who can learn to bark), and a host of others which are capable of
learning vocalization patterns.



GS: Well, "smart," of course, is not a technical term - that's why I put it
in quotes. But the point was that "conditionability" of the vocal
musculature is not sufficient to generate culture and language. Elsewhere,
in response to Morse, I mentioned that a large portion of a human's behavior
is not elicited on the pattern of reflexes or more extended, but still
elicited, responses. My guess is that one can also show (with difficulty)
that response classes "collapse" into one big class more easily (i.e., at
first "dog" applies to only particular dogs, but with exposure to relatively
few exemplars, never-before-seen dogs are called "dogs") for humans and
other primates. I think I also mentioned "emergent equivalence classes" in
humans, and the near-complete failure to generate them in non-humans
(including non-human primates), although I suspect that emergent relations
are tied to the "collapse" of response classes. Even if emergent relations
are a uniquely-human thing, they are still the product of contingencies, but
they can't be explained by pointing to more ubiquitous processes like simple
operant stimulus control. Anyway, a lot of this is covered, I think, in my
reply to Morse.



PIP: I don't know why you would think that the
condition in humans is less primitive than our "smartness". Admittedly,
until we were smart, we probably didn't have much to say. And, once we
did have things to say, there was probably some selection pressure to
improve
the "conditionability" so that we could say it more clearly. But you seem
to be suggesting something different.



GS: I think I see what you are asking. You have already given the answer by
mentioning animals whose vocal responses are modifiable by consequences.
This is necessary, but not sufficient, and this suggests that when the other
necessary factors were properly aligned, flexibility in vocalizations caused
culture and language to be born. I suppose that it could be that we already
possessed flexible vocal behavior and then simply "got smarter." But, if you
look at other primates, one is not generally impressed with the flexibility
of their vocal izations, and one would, I'm guessing, have a difficult time
differentiating different forms of response. One can alter the rate of
vocalizations, it is likely, but probably not different topographies. Yet,
non-human primates are "pretty smart," and if we are like them, we were
probably "pretty smart" before our vocal responses became highly malleable.



<tail snipped because it is all contained above>


"Perplexed in Peoria" <jimmenegay@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message



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