Re: Lizard engines and rat engines

Perplexed in Peoria <jimmenegay@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote or quoted:

> First, according to the thermodynamics textbooks, a "closed system" smaller
> than the universe as a whole is not only possible, it is an essential concept
> in the idea structure. Thermodynamics textbooks are not written in code.

Are you /sure/ they are saying that? They might be saying that you can
build reasonable models of systems that assume no interaction with
their enviroments - but do you /really/ think they are claiming such
models accurately represent what is going on?

Out in the real world, isolating a system from its environment appears
to be practically impossible. No amount of lead sheilding and coal-mines
is sufficient.

> Second, you seem to misunderstand what the standard second law DOES say. It
> doesn't say that the entropy of a closed system must not decrease. Put some
> water in a bottle, stopper the bottle, and put the bottle in your freezer.
> The contents of the bottle constitute a closed system, and the entropy of
> this closed system decreases and the water cools and then freezes. (But
> perhaps you don't think that the bottle of water constitutes a closed
> system. Guy, I have to say that this kind of denial of the standard
> definitions reminds me of Edser's methodology.)

That's not denial - that's perfectly conventional. A bottle of hot
water in a freezer has an energy flux throuh its surface - and doesn't
qualify as a closed system - except according to an *exceptionally*
simple-minded thermodynamic model.

> Third, I am not aware of any reason in theory or experiment to believe that
> there can be a law of maximal rate of entropy gain. Prigogine proved that
> systems near equilibrium organize themselves so as to MINIMIZE the rate of
> (local) entropy PRODUCTION. I am unaware of any theoretical or consistent
> empirical evidence for the kind of law you suggest. [...]

IMO, there is a "thermodynamics of complex systems". Dissipative and
self-organising structures tend to share a range of thermodynamic
characteristics - compared to other structures, and one of the jobs
of scientists is to attempt to characterise such phenomenon.

> If a self-organized system simply grows in extent, thus coming to
> consist of more matter, does that constitute and entropy gain?

I don't think that's a helpful question, but IMO, the answer is
"yes". Essentially, entropy is a measure of disorder - and larger
systems can be more disordered - in both Shannon's and Kolmogorov's
senses. However, I doubt whether this idea is relevent or useful here.

> > This conjecture (to avoid over-assertion) about
> > thermodynamics mimics the notion that natural selection favors changes in
> > biological populations that increase fitness, and has enormous implications
> > for all the sciences. It also implies a sort of natural teleology, because
> > it suggests that dynamic systems ultimately exist for the purpose of
> > increasing the rate of universal entropy gain.
>
> I don't see any analogy, even if your conjecture regarding thermodynamics
> were correct. Does a self-organized system (a vortex, say) correspond to
> an organism or to a population of organisms?

They are all self-organising dissipative structures. So in my book, the
answer is "either".

> Teleology in biology is applied to the typical components and features of
> organisms, not to the organisms or populations themselves. We say that the
> heart has a function, not that the organism or population has a function.

....unless one is talking about high-level selection, that is - in which
case regarding whole species as playing roles analogous to organs in
their ecosystem is permissible.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@xxxxxxxxxxx Remove lock to reply.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Lizard engines and rat engines
    ... Thermodynamics textbooks are not written in code. ... What you think a "closed system" is and what the textbooks define a closed ... Check a textbook. ... >> water in a bottle, stopper the bottle, and put the bottle in your freezer. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Lizard engines and rat engines
    ... >> Rather than having a second law that merely limits the scope of potential ... >> systems that increase the RATE of entropy gain in closed systems through ... > First, according to the thermodynamics textbooks, a "closed system" smaller ... Thermodynamics textbooks are not written in code. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Lizard engines and rat engines
    ... >>> Rather than having a second law that merely limits the scope of potential ... >>> systems that increase the RATE of entropy gain in closed systems through ... >> doesn't say that the entropy of a closed system must not decrease. ... >> water in a bottle, stopper the bottle, and put the bottle in your freezer. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Lizard engines and rat engines
    ... >>> Rather than having a second law that merely limits the scope of potential ... >>> systems that increase the RATE of entropy gain in closed systems through ... >> doesn't say that the entropy of a closed system must not decrease. ... >> water in a bottle, stopper the bottle, and put the bottle in your freezer. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: WHATS LIFE?
    ... function of the Second Law of Thermodynamics -which states that entropy ... cannot increase in a closed system. ... One mistake, so I guess we can throw the whole thing out. ...
    (talk.origins)