Re: Lizard engines and rat engines

Perplexed in Peoria <jimmenegay@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote or quoted:
>
> "Perplexed in Peoria" <jimmenegay@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:...
> >
> > "Guy Hoelzer" <hoelzer@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:davmfp$1ee5$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > The revolution in the paradigm here requires a restatement of
> > > the second law, although there are also many proponents of articulating a
> > > fourth law. The difference is subtle in my estimation, but also profound.
> > > Rather than having a second law that merely limits the scope of potential
> > > outcome of a dynamic process to those that do not decrease the entropy of a
> > > closed system (IMHO this is code for the universe as a whole), many
> > > physicists are coming to appreciate a law that favors the emergence of
> > > systems that increase the RATE of entropy gain in closed systems through
> > > self-organization.
> >
> > First, according to the thermodynamics textbooks, a "closed system" smaller
> > than the universe as a whole is not only possible, it is an essential concept
> > in the idea structure. Thermodynamics textbooks are not written in code.
> >
> > Second, you seem to misunderstand what the standard second law DOES say. It
> > doesn't say that the entropy of a closed system must not decrease. Put some
> > water in a bottle, stopper the bottle, and put the bottle in your freezer.
> > The contents of the bottle constitute a closed system, and the entropy of
> > this closed system decreases and the water cools and then freezes. (But
> > perhaps you don't think that the bottle of water constitutes a closed
> > system. Guy, I have to say that this kind of denial of the standard
> > definitions reminds me of Edser's methodology.)
>
> Remember how Edser recently found three definitions of linkage equilibrium
> on the web, and one of them was completely wrong? Well, I decided to check
> what the web has to say about "closed systems" and the 2nd law. So I did
> a Google web search using this search string:
> "closed system" "isolated system" entropy thermodynamics
>
> I got 1600 hits. The top ones were all tutorials on thermodynamics. So
> I started reading them to find graphic evidence that you (Guy) are wrong.

I seem to recall that we've had this exact discussion here before.

Remember this?

I would defend using "closed" as a synonym of "isolated".

IMO, this is a case of popular usage swamping the theorist's
preferred terminology. Maybe "isolated" had too many syllables,
but - for whatever reason - its use has been convincingly
displaced by the term "closed".

Technically, the second law applies to *isolated* systems - and
/not/ to *closed* ones.

Yet - in a GoogleDuel:

http://www.google.com/search?q ="second+law"+closed 31,700
http://www.google.com/search?q ="second+law"+isolated 15,200

It's a landslide in favour of the "wrong" term.

IMO - those who still want "closed" to refer to the (rather useless)
concept of systems which exchange energy - but not matter - with their
surroundings should admit the defeat of their preferred terminology at
the hands of the masses - and get with the program everyone else
is plainly following ;-)

....

I repeated the duel today:

http://google.com/search?q="second+law"+"closed+system"; 22,500
http://google.com/search?q="second+law"+"isolated+system"; 11,400

It doesn't look like much has changed.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@xxxxxxxxxxx Remove lock to reply.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Lizard engines and rat engines
    ... >> Rather than having a second law that merely limits the scope of potential ... >> systems that increase the RATE of entropy gain in closed systems through ... > First, according to the thermodynamics textbooks, a "closed system" smaller ... Thermodynamics textbooks are not written in code. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: American Spectator: Evolutions Thermodynamic Failure
    ... >In the current debate over "Intelligent Design," the strongest ... >second law of thermodynamics. ... >and it was shown that in an isolated system this entropy always ... >order can be defined which also never increase in a closed system. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Lizard engines and rat engines
    ... >>> Rather than having a second law that merely limits the scope of potential ... >>> systems that increase the RATE of entropy gain in closed systems through ... >> doesn't say that the entropy of a closed system must not decrease. ... >> water in a bottle, stopper the bottle, and put the bottle in your freezer. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Lizard engines and rat engines
    ... >>> Rather than having a second law that merely limits the scope of potential ... >>> systems that increase the RATE of entropy gain in closed systems through ... >> water in a bottle, stopper the bottle, and put the bottle in your freezer. ... > what the web has to say about "closed systems" and the 2nd law. ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: American Spectator: Evolutions Thermodynamic Failure
    ... > second law of thermodynamics. ... > order can be defined which also never increase in a closed system. ... > distribution of carbon diffusing in a solid, using the same equations, ... > law is all about probability, it uses probability at the microscopic ...
    (talk.origins)