Re: Lizard engines and rat engines


"Guy Hoelzer" <hoelzer@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:dbsj1f$2qgq$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Hi Gill,
>
> in article dbq0bj$1p3g$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, g at gillawton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> wrote on 7/21/05 10:31 PM:
>
>> "Guy Hoelzer" <hoelzer@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:davmfp$1ee5$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>> In a way, I think that Biology has taken the lead on this perspective
>>> and
>>> that the (other) physical sciences are in the process of embracing the
>>> utility and validity of the teleological stance. In my view, this is
>>> being
>>> developed out of thermodynamics, which is certainly about the
>>> attribution
>>> of
>>> final cause. The revolution in the paradigm here requires a restatement
>>> of
>>> the second law, although there are also many proponents of articulating
>>> a
>>> fourth law. The difference is subtle in my estimation, but also
>>> profound.
>>> Rather than having a second law that merely limits the scope of
>>> potential
>>> outcome of a dynamic process to those that do not decrease the entropy
>>> of
>>> a
>>> closed system (IMHO this is code for the universe as a whole), many
>>> physicists are coming to appreciate a law that favors the emergence of
>>> systems that increase the RATE of entropy gain in closed systems through
>>> self-organization. This conjecture (to avoid over-assertion) about
>>> thermodynamics mimics the notion that natural selection favors changes
>>> in
>>> biological populations that increase fitness, and has enormous
>>> implications
>>> for all the sciences. It also implies a sort of natural teleology,
>>> because
>>> it suggests that dynamic systems ultimately exist for the purpose of
>>> increasing the rate of universal entropy gain.
>>>
>> Lots of people who claim to understand thermodynamics seem to have a view
>> of
>> it that defies the conservation of energy and mass in the universe. A
>> conception of entropy as a loss of energy and/or mass runs contrary to
>> all
>> the empirical evidence in any of the sciences.
>>
>> Some would view entropy as a loss of order.
>
> I realize that entropy has been defined in numerous ways over the years,
> some of which are inconsistent with one another. I do indeed like the
> notion of entropy as the degree of disorder. A "loss of order" would be
> an
> increase in entropy.
>
>> But such a view would contravene conservation of energy and mass.
>
> How so?
>
> I disagree (pending your explanation). Order/disorder is about the
> configuration of mass and energy, not about its conservation. I take the
> first law as a given.
>
>> All entroy means -- if it does not contradict conservation of mass and
>> energy -- is that any particular constellation of them is impermanent.
>
> That is far from any definition of entropy I have ever read, although it
> is
> true of anything with a temperature above absolute zero.
>
>> The
>> manifestation of "disorder" or "loss of order" is comparable to the
>> manifestation of what is a weed. Just as a weed can be viewed as
>> something
>> that is in a place where it is not wanted, entropy can be viewed as a
>> departure from a wanted constellation.
>>
>> For example: To view a reciprocating engine as an orderly thing is to
>> say
>> that someone wants it to do a certain thing efficiently. Entropy occurs
>> in
>> the form of loss of mechanical benefit from fuel combustion, just as a
>> weed
>> takes some nutrients a farmer might want to go into his crop. To view
>> the
>> loss of some of the energy of an engine in the
>> form of heat does not mean any matter or energy are lost (as some people
>> seem to take entropy to mean). It simply means the maker or user of an
>> engine does not get 100 % of his way, nor 100 % of the time.
>
> Thank you for this interesting discussion. I don't disagree with your
> point
> about physics. I just disagree that this is all there is to entropy.
> Your
> limited view of entropy seems at odds with most physicists, with the
> possible exception of Boltzmann and those specializing on statistical
> mechanics. In fact, while I am a great admirer of Bolzmann, I think that
> the statistical approach to thermodynamics lost touch with some essential
> physics of thermodynamics. Perhaps this is why you think this is all
> there
> is to entropy, while I attribute more to it.
>
Yes, I need to do a lot more reading and thinking about entropy. I just
sense that most of the people I come into contact with have a "gut feeling"
about entropy whereby something has to be put into order by an intelligent
orderer (divine, human... or whom have you) and then, unless more energy
is input to the maintenance of that order, all returns to chaos.

My own "gut feelings" have NEVER fit in with anybody's. I've always
questioned everything and view learning as the most exciting thing in the
world, except that there is so gosh awful much illogic and misinformation
at every turn, deciding whom to listen to is the greatest dilemma (for me)
in
life.

Half the stuff I studied in college is now deemed a lie. And I cannot help
but
believe that fifty years from now about 99 percent of what is state of the
art
academic diamonds is going to go the same route.

It is sad to me that I have not known how to access the one person in ten
thousand who is intellectually open and congnizant of his own limitations.

I hope you will be around after I do some further reading and thinking on
entropy. As of now the concept of "chaos" is, for me, the most absurd of
all
impossibilities. In my imagination there is never going to be a time when
there will not be any complex coalescences... any evolutionary process...
underway.

If all that is (of which our universe may be no more than a gnat's fart, for
all
we know) were going to become distributed ratably through some part of
space, it has had infinite time to do so, and infinite time to re-coalesce,
after
that.

These gut feelings of mine are not learned. They do not consist of answers.
In fact, the more answers someone has, the more reality challenged he/she
seems to me.

The Great Unknown that my mind travels is is the same Great Unknown all
others are up against. Once again, this is a "gut feeling," and not a
declaration of judgement.

g

>> Some people seem to ascribe some metaphysical properties to the fact that
>> we
>> humans do not get things 100 % our way, 100 % of the time, mechanically,
>> and
>> depict entropy as a tendency of things to fall into disorder unless
>> energy
>> is exerted to keep them "in order."
>>
>> If one puts a thousand black marbles and a thousand white marbles into a
>> jar
>> and repeatedly shakes them, it is possible for them to align in such a
>> way
>> as to spell a word, such as "order," when viewed from one side of the jar
>> (or even from multiple sides). If the next good shaking puts them in a
>> configuration whereby they are equally distributed throughout the jar,
>> that
>> is no more than one more configuration. And if, shaken again, the
>> marbles
>> form the word "help" on one side of the jar, that is still another.
>
> Note that you had to do work, breakdown gradients (macromolecules), and
> generate heat to achieve these highly unlikely but possible outcomes.
>
>> The universe (so far as any can tell) contains mass and energy; and they
>> continually are changing from one to the other. The only way one
>> configuration is order, and another disorder, is meaningful only with
>> respect to who likes them a certain way, and dislikes them another.
>
> Order/disorder has nothing to do with like/dislike. IMHO it is a
> distraction to focus on perceiver biases in this arena for the same
> reasons
> I think it is a mistake to do so with information theory.
>
>> Often we read allusions to causes and effects that are comparable to
>> someone's noting that a roulette wheel comes up with the sequence
>> 28-3-14-31-0-3 and says, "Okay, now what was it about 28 that caused 3 to
>> follow; and what was it about 3 that caused 14 to follow... (etc.)"
>
> I agree, and I try to be aware of this logical error in any context. I
> don't think that I am falling into this trap here.
>
>> Some things DO express 1:1 relationships, some 1:1000, some 1: a number
>> which could not be written on this page.
>>
>> Two of the most frequently misunderstood things in the world -- it seems
>> to
>> this grasshopper -- are the notion of
>> entropy and the notion of cause and effect.
>
> I agree.
>
>> And it is bad enough that some
>> people do not comprehend them in science; but when they carry the
>> misunderstandings over into metaphysics, that is when things begin to get
>> really wacky.
>
> Right. I don't recognize the existence of anything metaphysical.
>
> Guy

I sense that in all the "out there" there are things that would blow your
mind
and my mind as surely as the first airplane over Borneo blew a few, if we
were to get thrust into a "civilization" millions of years more advanced
than
our own... or even if we were to get to visit humanity a thousand years
hence.

Even if most of mankind were to get wiped out, there probably would be
enough technologically sophisticated individuals left to whip up some good
stuff. Although German factories were blown to smithereens in WWII, the
technical know-how remained, and rapidly effected new progress.

Do you ever think about how Isaac Newton would feel if you and I could
get into a time machine and fetch him here to ride with the astronauts? I
do.
He suffered a "mental breakdown" as it was. I have no doubt he would have
to sedated for a while.

Sorry. Didn't mean to ramble. It's rare that I get to talk with anyone
with
high IQ. Hope it will continue.

g


.

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