Re: Applying TDF (was understanding y)


"Catherine Woodgold" <an588@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:dk6vbd$2bij$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Perplexed in Peoria" (jimmenegay@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) writes:
> > We are in agreement on the biology. The possibility of getting started
> > falls as e rises. But we are in disagreement on the math. Since
> > r is almost certainly less than 1, it is the case mathematically that
> > (r^e) falls as e rises. But you are claiming that (r^e) is the "degree
> > of difficulty". I would think that you would want the difficulty to
> > rise as e rises.
>
> I think I disagree with you, though I'm not sure what
> you're saying has been stated clearly with definitions
> of terms and everything.
>
> I think you mean that it would be difficult for kin-selection
> behaviour to evolve, for similar reasons that it would
> be difficult for vision to evolve: because why would
> a lens evolve if there is no retina, and vice versa, etc.

Something like that, though I am talking about prerequisite genes,
rather than prerequisite anatomy.

> I disagree. I think kin selection can usually evolve
> quite easily. Much more like growing longer fur if you
> live in a colder climate than like evolving eyes from
> nothing. I gave a couple of examples, e.g. secreting
> a substance which is beneficial to oneself and then
> getting a single mutated gene that causes one to secrete
> a larger amount of the substance, where secreting a
> larger amount is somewhat costly to oneself but beneficial
> to one's relatives (e.g. littermates in the womb).
>
> Even if it is somewhat difficult for it to evolve
> (like eyes), it can still evolve -- eyes did.

I agree. In the real world there are many ways of "getting started".
For altruistic behaviors, one could start by only exhibiting the
behavior toward your own children, then get sloppy and apply it
to any nearby children, then extend it to familiar adults, then
refine by applying it only to kin.

Or, since there is little fitness effect - positive or negative -
until all of the genes participating in the epistasis rise to
perceptible frequencies, you can postulate that most of the
genes acquire significant frequencies by drift.

As I pointed out to John before, his argument that epistasis
makes altruism difficult to start pretty much applies to any
complex trait. He replied to this, but I can't say that I
really understood his response. Perhaps he will clarify.


.

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