Re: Group selected altruism - (was: Hamilton's rule)


"John Edser" <edser@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:dm5vmk$lm5$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> JE:-
> These groups all remain fitness _interdependent_. This means they provide
> a
> mutual but not necessarily equal fitness gain per group member. The
> essential characteristic is that the fitness of any one group is the
> simple
> sum of the fitness of each group member. It is these groups that provide
> one
> of the most effective adaptations within evolutionary theory:
> _independent_
> mutualism which must not be confused with Hamilton's heuristic dependent
> mutualism. Because of the consistent misuse of HR over about 50 years
> within
> which independent levels of fitness are not maintained or have been
> incorrectly converted, independent mutualism has become utterly confused
> with dependent altruism and dependent selfishness neither of which exist
> within nature.
>
>> The second essential feature of a group, in these models, is that the
>> fate of the individuals in the group is in some sense tied up with the
>> fate of the group - at least for the portion of the individual's lifetime
>> that it spends in the group. Group selection leads to bus passengers
>> who do not distract the bus driver.
>
> JE:-
> Yes, but this relationship is classically INTERDEPENDENT, i.e. it relies
> entirely on increasing the INDEPENDENT fitness of each group member but
> not
> necessarily equally. Because of the consistent misuse of HR this simple
> fact
> has become submerged within a mathematics based on gene centric population
> genetics which has consistently failed to conserve levels of selection
> and/
> or has singularly failed to correctly convert one level into another.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Edser
> Independent Researcher
>
> edser@xxxxxxxxxx

Why have you ignored all the simplest and most obvious evidence that group
selection of altruistic traits works? Is it because you imagine the
greatest chance of success in defeating the argument on a technicality?

Science doesn't work that way, much to the credit of our civilization.


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Group selected altruism - (was: Hamiltons rule)
    ... >> mutual but not necessarily equal fitness gain per group member. ... >> mutualism which must not be confused with Hamilton's heuristic dependent ... Group selection leads to bus passengers ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Reviews of Unto Others
    ... >> c is only a relative fitness cost and not ... > rule discriminate between altruism and mutualism? ... > decrease in absolute fitness, ... > unilateral effects (including unilateral effects on ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Hamiltons rule
    ... > fitness" means. ... not at all how nature sees it e.g. the cost of mutualism. ... >>>But I'm claiming that once the cell is in the slug, ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)