Re: What do geneticists think of memes?

Perplexed in Peoria wrote:
> "Lupus" <ihowllikeawolf@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:docukl$1c30$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>>I gather the meme idea is not taken all that seriously by (most)
>>geneticists.
>
>
> I'm not a professional or academically trained geneticist, but
> what the heck, I'll respond anyways. Personally, I am intrigued
> by it. I like the existence of an analogy between biological
> inheritance and cultural inheritance, but I has seen enough bad
> and misleading analogies in my day to be cautious about whether
> the analogy actually provides useful guidance in either direction.
>
>
>>What are the major disanalogies between the two concepts which make it
>>untenable to give a rigourous scientific treatment of memes?
>
>
> 1. Genes are inherited almost exclusively vertically (parent to
> offspring). Memes are transmitted from a variety of sources and
> are acquired at a variety of times within the lifecycle.
>
> 2. Genes are transmitted by a mechanism which takes no account of
> what a gene DOES. Useful and useless genes are equally likely to
> be inherited from a parent. That produces a BIG simplification of
> the math. Memetic transfer depends in a complicated way upon what
> the meme does.
>
> 3. Genes are usually selected indirectly - but their impact on the
> fitness of the 'vehicle' carrying the gene. The beneficial or detrimental
> effect of a meme on its bearer may have little to do with whether a
> meme propagates. Memetic selection probably has to be modeled at
> the meme level, not the vehicle level.
>
I'll just add a fourth to this:
4. There is no good objective definition of a meme. For genes the
definitions are good enough that, even if the concept is fuzzy around
the edges, we can still objectively identify most genes as genes (i.e.
any reasonable and well informed person can do it). We can then work
with this object, and (for example) transfer it into another organism.

For memes, it's much more difficult to identify a meme as a meme, rather
than a part of a meme or several memes (e.g. is religion a meme, or a
collection?). This makes it much more difficult to work with as a
concept: if you can't identify a meme, you can't manipulate it, or
develop a mathematical model for how it behaves.

Bob

--
Bob O'Hara

Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics
P.O. Box 68 (Gustaf H?llstr?min katu 2b)
FIN-00014 University of Helsinki
Finland

Telephone: +358-9-191 51479
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Relevant Pages

  • Re: The root of all evil? - Dawkins Documentary
    ... selection not being a very common phenomenon, ... Dawkins himself refers to genes are 'selfish cooperators'. ... what the biochemical nature of life itself and how it might have begun. ... parasitical is one manner in which a meme can operate, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: The wirehead problem
    ... meme, or is the behavior of "building a PC" the real meme here? ... Memes are like genes - and not much like phenotypes. ... we have switched our focus from the genotype to ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: What do geneticists think of memes?
    ... Genes are inherited almost exclusively vertically (parent to ... >>the meme does. ... >>genetics math that can be transferred from genes to memes. ... >>memetics, it is anyone's guess as to whether individuation matters ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: OT: Local Optimization?
    ... The people who make the laws, usually instigate laws for their own ... > a local stability point with the genes most humans have had selected. ... Its a transient random meme that doesn't maximise numbers of all ... > talking as though it's a given assumption that religion is the source ...
    (sci.electronics.design)
  • Re: What do geneticists think of memes?
    ... Genes are inherited almost exclusively vertically (parent to ... > the meme does. ... But most geneticists ... > memetics, it is anyone's guess as to whether individuation matters ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)