Re: What do geneticists think of memes?

Perplexed in Peoria wrote:
> "Perplexed in Peoria" <jimmenegay@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:dodh67$1k6u$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>>"Lupus" <ihowllikeawolf@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:docukl$1c30$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>>I gather the meme idea is not taken all that seriously by (most)
>>>geneticists.
>>
>>I'm not a professional or academically trained geneticist, but
>>what the heck, I'll respond anyways. Personally, I am intrigued
>>by it. I like the existence of an analogy between biological
>>inheritance and cultural inheritance, but I have seen enough bad
>>and misleading analogies in my day to be cautious about whether
>>the analogy actually provides useful guidance in either direction.
>>
>>
>>>What are the major disanalogies between the two concepts which make it
>>>untenable to give a rigourous scientific treatment of memes?
>>
>>1. Genes are inherited almost exclusively vertically (parent to
>>offspring). Memes are transmitted from a variety of sources and
>>are acquired at a variety of times within the lifecycle.
>>
>>2. Genes are transmitted by a mechanism which takes no account of
>>what a gene DOES. Useful and useless genes are equally likely to
>>be inherited from a parent. That produces a BIG simplification of
>>the math. Memetic transfer depends in a complicated way upon what
>>the meme does.
>>
>>3. Genes are usually selected indirectly - by their impact on the
>>fitness of the 'vehicle' carrying the gene. The beneficial or detrimental
>>effect of a meme on its bearer may have little to do with whether a
>>meme propagates. Memetic selection probably has to be modeled at
>>the meme level, not the vehicle level.
>>
>>There are others, but those are the main ones. Dawkins might claim
>>that these differences are unimportant since he believes that the
>>'gene-level" view of selection is paramount. But most geneticists
>>do most of their mathematical modeling using the 'organism-level'
>>view of selection. At the very least, there is almost no population
>>genetics math that can be transferred from genes to memes. And
>>geneticists kind of dig math.
>>
>>
>>>Is it a question of definition? Or how memes are not well individuated?
>>>
>>>In which case are genes all that well individuated? No doubt some are,
>>>but as I understand it (which may not be very well), we're still quite
>>>some way from a treatment of all genes as strictly individuated units.
>>
>>I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the issue of "individuation".
>>I'm going to assume you mean something like this. Take Dawkins'
>>example of the virgin birth meme (appropriate to the season). Is
>>this one meme, or a meme complex?
>>
>>Certainly, the same kind of ambiguity appears in genetics. Is some
>>altruistic behavior caused by a single gene or by a group of genes?
>>But it turns out, in the math that population geneticists have
>>developed, that the issue makes little difference to many of the
>>results.
>>
>>But since we don't yet have a well developed mathematical theory of
>>memetics, it is anyone's guess as to whether individuation matters
>>there.
>
>
> I agree with the points made by all three responding posters - especially
> the point that we don't yet know anything about the physical embodyment
> of a meme. That point may be taken as a better answer to the OP's worries
> about 'individuation'.
>
> On the other hand, I would point out that the science of classical
> genetics was already fully mature before we really understood the
> physical embodyment of genes -

True, but we were able to infer the presence of genes, so it was clear
that they were "out there", and could be identified (I'm trying to
resist using the term "mind independent objects" here).

perhaps memetics can make similar
> advances without first nailing down just how memes work mechanically.
>
> Hmmm. So what organism should serve as the model for memetics research
> instead of Pisum, Drosophila, and Neurospora? Something that gives the
> researcher full control of memetic transmission.
>
Members of political parties? Or should we just set up five or six
fundamentalist faiths to use (we'll need replication)?

Personally, I like the idea of the mem as a metaphore, but I'm not
convinced that it's more than that. It may still be useful
scientifically, though.

Bob

--
Bob O'Hara
Department of Mathematics and Statistics
P.O. Box 68 (Gustaf Hällströmin katu 2b)
FIN-00014 University of Helsinki
Finland

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.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The root of all evil? - Dawkins Documentary
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  • Re: What do geneticists think of memes?
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    (sci.bio.evolution)
  • Re: Neglected cuisines of the world......
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