Re: Evolutionist withholds evidence on Haldane's Dilemma


"Vend" <vend82@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:f0tv6t$2gpe$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 27 Apr, 19:18, "Entertained by my own EIMC"
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"DK" <d...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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In article <f0o3uf$2ek...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Perplexed in Peoria"
<jimmene...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Vend" <ven...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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What is this Haldane's Dilemma? The Wikipedia article is confusing and
unclear.

Probably because it has been a battleground of edits and counter-edits. I
would
recommend that you look at Robert Williams's web site
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/haldane.html
with the understanding that it is biased in one direction, and then look
at
Remine's web site,
http://www1.minn.net/~science/Haldane.htm
with the understanding that it is biased in the opposite direction. You
won't
get a neutral POV in either place, but you may get more clarity.

And then, if you are ambitious, go to the primary literature.

As to the name "Haldane's Dilemma", it was coined by van Valen who
apparently
thought that the 'dilemma' was something facing a species - if it 'tries'
to
evolve too fast, it goes extinct, but if it evolves too slow, it probably
faces
eventual extinction as well.

ReMine, however, interprets it as a dilemma facing evolutionary
biologists - if
they claim that evolution proceeded as fast as they might like to think it
did,
then they must admit that the evolution occurred by a process other than
natural
selection. Or so ReMine claims.

In the face of new dogs evolving out of wolves (arguably different
species,
down to reproductive barrier for some varieries) practically in no time,
the whole argument seems quite pointless.

Had you chosen almost any other available such argument I would stick my
nose up in the air and say, "I could also have told you so" :-> -- or, IOW,
that those who mine ReMine's red herring might be boning one that - who
knows - have religious roots?.

One of the reasons why I am pessimistic about your prospects of "pulling the
rug" on this altogether doubtful dilemma by referring to the evolution from
wolves to today's dogs, is folk's fondness for fractioning natural selection
into natural and "artificial" (i.e. dogs being selectively bred by people).

Artificial selection is a special case of natural selection, thus if a
limit exists for natural selection, it must apply to artificial
selection.

Hmmm. I'm not sure that is completely true. The Haldane's Dilemma argument
makes some assumptions regarding the 'naturalness' of the selection regime
which are easily violated in a situation of artificial selection.

For example, a breeder can easily choose those animals with EITHER red hair
OR a long snout as breeding stock for the next generation. And then he can
be careful to exclusively interbreed the red-hairs with the long-snouts.

Nature, on the other hand, and by the Haldane assumptions, breeds at random.
Furthermore, by Haldane's math, selection in favor of red hair is going to
kill non-reds regardless of snout length and selection in favor of long snouts
is going to kill short-snouts regardless of hair color. So you can't get that
perfect EITHER/OR response to selection.


.

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