Re: Stephen Wolfram vs. Charles Darwin on natural selection

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:47:14 -0500 (EST), Lorentz
<drosen0000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Dec 4, 1:24=A0pm, r norman <r_s_norman@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:05:35 -0500 (EST), Tim Tyler



<seemy...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Dec 3, 6:36 am, r norman <r_s_norman@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:43:04 -0500 (EST), Tim Tyler

Right - but Richard Dawkins made no claim of uniqueness.
If you look at his specification, what it says is:

``It is important to specify that both books describe their
=A0respective animals 'down to the same level of detail'.
=A0Obviously, if we describe the millipede down to cellular
=A0detail, but stick to gross anatomical features in the case
=A0of the lobster, the millipede would come out ahead.

=A0 -http://www.skeptics.com.au/articles/dawkins.htm
=A0 -http://books.google.com/books?id=3D3DDwD4bjQozgYC&pg=3D3DPA100&=
lpg=3D3DPA100

Without any description =A0of just what detail must be included and ho=
w
unique the description must =A0be, the notion of complexity simply mak=
es
no sense whatsoever. [...]

It is just like Kolmogorov complexity - where you need to specify the
descriptive language. =A0The language isn't built into the whole idea -
simply because there are many languages and different ones are
appropriate under different circumstances.

In Richard's example you DO need to specify the "level of detail" -
but you DO NOT need to specify how unique the resulting description
must be.

So the question remains: =A0is "length of a description" at all a useful
measure of complexity for an organism, even as a rough measure? =A0Is
there any way of describing very different kinds of organisms "down to
the same level of detail"? =A0

I think one can't until one defines what an individual is. A group of
organisms is more complex than an individual organism. The size of the
description may be the same for 8 paramecia or a volvox with 8 cells.
So if I see an increase in complexity, is it aa increase in complexity
per organism or a decrease in number of organisms?
Think siponophores. Is the siphonopore individual just a complex
jelly fish, or is it a colony of simple jellyfish?

Exactly. How can you compare the "level of detail" when describing
all of life, from bacteria to highly specialized animals? Even
limiting the problem to animals, what "level of detail" is needed to
describe a parasite with greatly reduced organs and organ systems but
with a complex life cycle involving multiple life stages with
different required hosts? How does that compare with a social insect
life a leaf cutter ant? I don't think the notion of comparing
complexity makes any sense here.




.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: OT - Re: Tim Daneluk
    ... Water molecules? ... creativity, love, hate, etc are either not present in "lower" animals ... are nothing more than manifestations of our complexity. ... form of life may surpass human complexity and then humans will find ...
    (rec.woodworking)
  • Re: OT - Re: Tim Daneluk
    ... Water molecules? ... creativity, love, hate, etc are either not present in "lower" animals ... are nothing more than manifestations of our complexity. ... form of life may surpass human complexity and then humans will find ...
    (rec.woodworking)
  • Re: Should frum Jews buy Battery eggs or Free Range eggs?
    ... possible aspects of life. ... Religion gives us the tools to cover all ... that aren't just because the complexity of their behavior triggers our ... Why do we need to give animals the benefit of the doubt? ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Myths about evolution in "The Top 10 Myths about Evolution"
    ... And unless one thinks that magic is involved, it is clearly possible in principle to measure the Kolmogorov complexity of an animal. ... No. I'm saying that there is no general trend of increasing complexity in the Phanerozoic fossil record of animals. ... But if you're agreeing with Gould that any increase is a right-tail phenomenon, do you also agree with my point, that the fossil record doesn't display a pattern of increasing complexity during the Phanerozoic? ... And the increase in complexity you are talking about here is apparently the complexity of an ecosystem or community rather than of an organism. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Advanced ID Theory Smeared With Religion
    ... due to our inability to articulate the complexity of the universe ... then life), do we see legal forces in public education proclaiming ... We have already explained to you why intelligent design has no place for consideration in the science classroom. ...
    (talk.origins)