Re: death of the mind.

From: Allan C Cybulskie (allan.c.cybulskie_at_yahoo.ca)
Date: 07/18/04 

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:23:47 -0400

"David Longley" <David@longley.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8bF0ZuDq5j+AFwcv@longley.demon.co.uk...
> In article <ZLEJc.26181$TB3.1010975@news20.bellglobal.com>, Allan C
> Cybulskie <allan.c.cybulskie@yahoo.ca> writes
> >For those people who might be interested in reading on behaviourism, I
don't
> >recommend reading what David and Glenn suggest, because Quine and Skinner
> >are probably way too confusing for beginners, and David's "Fragments"
> >doesn't really say much at all I did read a good book recently by John
> >Staddon called "The New Behaviorism: Mind, Mechanism and Society" that
does
> >a pretty good job describing Skinner and other behaviourists, and also
> >points out some of the flaws and issues and motivations of Skinner.
> >
> >The only objection I found in it is probably at the heart of the debate
here
> >between the behaviourists and the non-behaviourists. Staddon is puzzled
> >that people find worrysome discoveries that say that our conscious
> >recognition of a decision actually FOLLOWS the activation of the neurons
> >that will carry out the action. To him, this doesn't seem confusing or
> >worrysome at all. So why do we find the discovery worrysome? Well, it's
> >because that by all common sense, our mental deliberations can and in
fact
> >do result in actions being taken. If it is the case that the action
starts
> >before the decision is "made", then our conscious decisions don't result
in
> >actions. And that, ultimately, eliminates us as, in any way, intelligent
> >beings, since intelligent deliberation plays no role in our actions.
> >
> >However, there is a way around this problem, which is to say that the
> >deliberation does, in fact, determine the action, but that the action and
> >the conscious recognition of the action both are the result of a brain
event
> >(or an event) that is the outcome of the deliberation itself. In short,
the
> >deliberation -- when it reaches its conclusion -- kicks off a brain event
> >that both instigates the action, and the conscious recognition of it.
And
> >it is obvious that these don't have to occur together, since we can make
> >"delayed decisions", where we decide what to do at a future time, and
then
> >do it.
> >
> >
> >
> In brief, talking (reporting) is behaviour. This is one class of
> behaviour amongst other classes of behaviours (some of which are
> private, some of which are public).

I have noticed that you and Glen attempt to define everything as behaviour,
and then insist that everything is behaviour. This is not necessarily a
problem. However, the different classes of behaviour do seem to be
importantly different from each other, and private behaviour seems to have a
larger role in determining other behaviour than public behaviour does. And
if you accept that, then you have no cause to criticize mentalists and
cognitivists since that is all they basically say or are interested in.

>
> Yet you have the temerity to remark that "Fragments doesn't really say
> much at all"!

It may have interesting things to say to people in your field, but it
neither gives a good description of behaviourism nor a good discussion of
flaws in cognitivism. Ergo, for the person trying to learn about the issues
here, it doesn't say much at all.

>Perhaps you should have appended "to me"? Perhaps you
> might then have given some further thought to what it's all about and
> why I (exasperatedly at times) advocate the approach that I do (there
> and elsewhere) at the exclusion of the claptrap which you appear to find
> so beguiling/intriguing.

Repeatedly asking people to read over and over something they've read before
and disagred with is in no way a good approach. No wonder you get
exasperated.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: death of the mind.
    ... For those people who might be interested in reading on ... describing Skinner and other behaviourists, ... since intelligent deliberation plays no role in our actions. ... action and the conscious recognition of the action both are the result ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: death of the mind.
    ... recommend reading what David and Glenn suggest, because Quine and Skinner ... between the behaviourists and the non-behaviourists. ... since intelligent deliberation plays no role in our actions. ... and the conscious recognition of it. ...
    (sci.cognitive)
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