Re: death of the mind.

From: John Casey (kjcasey_at_hotkey.net.au)
Date: 07/29/04 

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:04:53 +1000

"patty" <pattyNO@SPAMicyberspace.net> wrote in message
news:%rQNc.172876$a24.128188@attbi_s03...
> Lester Zick wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>It isn't that they've studied it and don't *agree*, rather, it
> >>>>>>invariably seems to me to be the case that they just don't get the
> >>>>>>important facts right. Conversely, those who *do* seem to be able to
> >>>>>>give an accurate account of what is the case (whether they *agree*
or
> >>>>>>not) don't seem to say the things about "the mind" etc that the
former
> >>>>>>group do.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>If behaviorists deny the mind and mental effects, what other accurate
> >>>>>accounts of what is the case are relevant?
> >>>>
> >>>>Answer: what behaviorists actually do. What is irrelevant is your
> >>>>conjectures about what they do.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>What behaviorists actually do is deny the mind and mental effects.
> >>
> >>Well you probably can find instances of them literally doing that.
> >
> >
> > Especially since within the last couple of weeks I found an instance
> > of Glen's commenting on this issue and explicitly doing exactly that.
> >
> >
> >>But
> >>I seriously doubt that what they are referring to is what you are
> >>referring to when you paraphrase them as above.
> >
> >
> > Well, it's pretty hard to paraphrase them inaccurately on the subject
> > of mind and mental effects when what Glen says is that he denies the
> > mind. If you want to argue with Glen's view of the mind and mental
> > effects, I suggest you discuss the topic with him rather than me.
> >
> >
> >>Aren't you not just a
> >>wee bit curious what they actually *are* saying?
> >
> >
> > I've just explained to you as well as David that what they actually
> > say is that there are no mind and mental effects. If you want to
> > pretend behaviorists are or should be saying something else, I
> > suggest you take the issue up with them and not me.
> >
>
> The mind is a vague concept that is not specific enough to talk about
> scientifically. It is mostly a collection of fables that we have
> learned from out culture. To say it doesn't exist is a political
> statement, not a scientific one. I doubt that the elite of the EAB will
> disagree. When i talked of the "death of the mind" (as i did when i
> started this subject line) i did so as a dramatization of the politics,
> not as a medical examiner doing an autopsy [though, perhaps the latter
> would make an interesting story]. The EAB deals with what can be
> reliably measured and controlled; and that excludes the fables. People
> don't like that because it appears to diminish what they consider
> important. It feels like it infringes on their sovereign domain.
>
> Can the EAB talk to people (to us) without evoking a negative political
> reaction? I doubt it. But if we want to understand what they are
> actually saying, if we are just a wee bit curious to learn something
> about our behavior; it is going to be up to us to get beyond our initial
> political revulsion.

To me politics has nothing to do with it. As far as the experimental
analysis of behaviour is concerned may I point to the experimental
basis of physics? Do they think they have "solved it all" with a few
experiments showing for example the laws of motion? Yet this is the
message I get from GS and DL. Conditioning, as revealed in a Skinner
box, explains it all. The rest are just "details". And yet they are
no more successful in designing a "brain" than anyone else. I kind
of think there is something missing in their theories about what is
the basis of the brains behaviours. I think that we must understand
the brains behaviours in terms of the neural connections not simply
in terms of observable actions in a Skinner box. 

--
John Casey

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