Re: death of the mind.

From: Lester Zick (lesterDELzick_at_worldnet.att.net)
Date: 07/29/04 

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:16:23 GMT

On 28 Jul 2004 17:14:58 -0700, erayo@bilkent.edu.tr (Eray Ozkural
exa) in comp.ai.philosophy wrote:

>lesterDELzick@worldnet.att.net (Lester Zick) wrote in message news:<4107ec48.62544200@netnews.att.net>...
>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:25:31 GMT, patty <pattyNO@SPAMicyberspace.net>
>> in comp.ai.philosophy wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The mind is a vague concept that is not specific enough to talk about
>> >scientifically.
>>
>> Then why does Glen talk about it?
>
>Two points:
>
>1. Sizemore or Longley do not and cannot talk scientifically, for they
>must adhere to an unscientific (some call it philosophical) dogma.
>
>2. As demonstrated by Sizemore himself, it is useless to try to avoid
>referring to mind, especially in philosophical discussions, let alone
>psychology!
>
>> > It is mostly a collection of fables that we have
>> >learned from out culture. To say it doesn't exist is a political
>> >statement, not a scientific one. I doubt that the elite of the EAB will
>> >disagree. When i talked of the "death of the mind" (as i did when i
>> >started this subject line) i did so as a dramatization of the politics,
>> >not as a medical examiner doing an autopsy [though, perhaps the latter
>> >would make an interesting story]. The EAB deals with what can be
>> >reliably measured and controlled; and that excludes the fables. People
>> >don't like that because it appears to diminish what they consider
>> >important. It feels like it infringes on their sovereign domain.
>>
>> Glen and David deal with anything they feel contributes to the agenda
>> of behaviorism whether political or scientific. Whether they deny the
>> mind out of political or scientific conviction is truly irrlevant to
>> whether they deny the mind. Glen definitely denies the mind. If he
>> does so out of conviction it's a matter of speculative philosophy and
>> not a matter of science and of no interest to those interested in the
>> mind and mental effects as matters of science.
>
>Their contributions are mostly political. Most of their talk (>80%) is
>methodological, based on philosophical speculations that are not
>generally accepted (metaphysics of this and that). In fact, such naive
>skepticism is not regarded very highly by modern analytic
>philosophers. (Philosophical skepticism in general is not! Most of
>them are quite silly. Their skepticism is the same sort of saying "Oh!
>This is not reality! I'm being fed these dreams while they keep me in
>an astral prison!")
>
>> >Can the EAB talk to people (to us) without evoking a negative political
>> >reaction? I doubt it.
>>
>> Who cares?
>
>Nobody.
>
>We care about explanations. So far, we have been given none.
>
>We don't care about poor philosophy that says "this cannot be
>explained!", "this cannot be done!" based on word games and
>nonsensical reasoning.
>
>> > But if we want to understand what they are
>> >actually saying, if we are just a wee bit curious to learn something
>> >about our behavior; it is going to be up to us to get beyond our initial
>> >political revulsion.
>>
>> If I want to understand what they are saying, I examine what they are
>> saying. What they are saying and have said repeatedly is that there
>> are no mind and mental effects. As someone interested in mechanical
>> explanations for the mind and mental effects, I have no interest
>> whatsoever in what behaviorists imagine they explain about behavior
>
>Precisely.
>
>> What they explain about behavior is nothing more than how they train
>> animals. What they imagine they explain is how these things happen in
>> the absence of a mind and mental effects. The technique behaviorists
>> use is to train animals and anthropomorphize results. Examples abound.
>> David recently recommended a paper by Kahneman in which the behavior
>> of pigeons was examined in macroeconomic terms as if they were human.
>
>Right. Economy works when you oversimplify things. AI does not work
>when you oversimplify things, for instance when reducing cognition to
>nothing! That's a very poor explanation for AI!
>
>> Just because patty doesn't like to examine arguments of behaviorists
>> critically doesn't mean they can't be examined critically by those who
>> are interested in the mechanical origin of the mind and mental effects
>> and disregard behaviorism for its denial of mind and mental effects.
>
>It's misdirected to think of behaviorists as scientific, Patty, they
>are a stupid religious cult. BTW, your ideas about semiotics are most
>definitely opposed to philosophical behaviorism. What's that wiggly
>thing in the head? You mean there is a "state" or "structure" in the
>head?
>
>Poor David sliced up brains and couldn't see anything of the sort,
>it's just radially arranged layers of cells. Guess what's in there?
>Memory? Noooo! Memory can't exist!!!
>
>But then, why do memories vanish when we have brain failures? What
>makes it different than a harddisk failure? Behaviorism can't even
>answer these exceedingly trivial questions about the mind, and thus
>must be eliminated from rational context. Consistency alone (which
>they think they have, but they do not!) does not entail reality. And
>well, they are not consistent, they always use mental terms while
>trying to explain their idiotic behavior.
>
>> Right now you're just caught up making stupid and irrelevant excuses
>> for behaviorists' very obvious and well documented behavior denying
>> what I'm interested in explaining mechanically, suggesting I'm at
>> fault for not being interested in what else behaviorists have to say.
>> And if you want to continue crying in your beer at my lack of interest
>> in animal training regimens and the anthropomorphosis of results, I
>> heartily suggest you tell it to someone who cares.
>
>In effect replicating their well known, and refuted responses to
>criticism. When they are completely stuck, they will then start waving
>their hands, emitting sentences of silly metaphysics.
>
>If it were scientific at all, they would not have to rely on a
>particular, odd, and in my opinion, useless, metaphysics.
>
>As I said before, it's best to think of Longley-bot and Glen as a sort
>of online, interactive Turing/IQ test. If you believe them, you are
>probably worse than your favorite chatbot. How many people on
>comp.ai.philosophy or elsewhere accept their philosophical and
>methodological claims? Who were they? How many didn't? What did
>psychologists say to them? neuroscientists? computer scientists?
>philosophers? cognitive scientists? linguists?
>
>What did they contribute to this newsgroup? "AI is just engineering"?
>What kind of a silly thesis is that?
>
>If Patty can't see that these guys are some of the most persistent,
>sophisticated and twisted kooks on USENET, she really ought to go and
>gather intelligence elsewhere to understand what's going on. Or I
>could alternatively tell her why it's a waste of mind. (and not just
>hers as demonstrated by this post!)

Very good, Eray. At least a few get it.

Regards - Lester

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