Re: Finding useful functions- part 1

From: Bill Modlin (modlin1_at_metrocast.net)
Date: 10/26/04 

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:28:02 -0700

"Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwolfkir@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:_h9fd.3953$rs5.298231@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> Bill Modlin wrote:
>>
>>> "Glen M. Sizemore" <gmsizemore2@yahoo.comwrote in message
>>> news:20041025074544.269$G8@news.newsreader.com...
>>>
>>>What is important in sensation and perception is that
>>>movement of an animal (or, more specifically, of its
>>>receptors) has consequences. When we sweep our eyes over a
>>>patch of red, there are changes in stimulation - such
>>>movement/consequence contingencies are at the heart of
>>>learning to perceive the world.
>
>>As I said at the end of my note, such consequence-driven
>>learning cannot be ignored. But it is not the only
>>important kind of learning, nor is it in any sense the
>>"most" important. It is the most obvious from the
>>outside, it puts the finishing touches on our behavior and
>>fine-tunes it, but it is inadequate in itself to explain
>>our behavior. Your position is rather like that of a naive
>>driver claiming that the only important parts of an
>>automobile are the steering wheel and pedals, who becomes
>>indignant at the suggestion that internal things like
>>engine, transmission, and linkages may also be important.
>>
>>We cannot perform coordinated motion in the first place, or
>>detect any changes in any sort of stimulation, until our
>>neural circuitry has become sufficiently organized to
>>support such operations. Which it does by virtue of the
>>correlation-driven learning mechanisms I talk about in my
>>note.

>That organisation occurs under environmental control. The
>notion that the genes somehow function, and the neural
>circuitry will develop just as it should, in the absence of
>inputs to the cells is simply false. In fact, in the absence
>of crictal environmental input via the sensory nerves,
>neural development can not only be delayed but permanently
>inhibited.
>
>One of the most elegant experiments to show this involved
>kittens who were raised in different visual environments. In
>one case, the kittens' cages were striped horizontally, and
>there were no platforms (which would have offered an
>opportunity to learn vertical separaations.) Very early in
>their development, these kittens failed to respond to
>vertical stripes. Those kittens that were raised the longest
>in this environment never leraned to perceive vertical
>stripes (edges, etc).
>
>Hidden in your analysis is the assumption that genes
>function absent environmental (extra-cellular) inputs. This
>is generally false. Genes must be swtiched on and off, in
>proper sequence etc, in order for development to take place.
>The chemistry of gene control includes extra-cellular
>inputs. In fact, most genes are controlled by extra-cellular
>inputs - neurons ultimately by the inputs from the sensors
>(which are of course controlled by inputs such as photons.)
>
>"Correlation-driven mechanisms of learning" do not deny the
>role of the environment in learning/development - they
>confirm it.

I just finished a response to your previous posting and
probably could let this go, but...

Wolf, is there any chance you might take a moment to read
what I write before replying to it?

You are still agreeing with me at the top of your voice.

Where do you get the idea that I am assuming development
in the absence of inputs? I am talking specifically about
how development is influenced by inputs, which can hardly
be construed as a denial of the role of inputs.

You give the same example that I alluded to in my original
post (the kittens raised in odd visual environments) , to make
much the same point as I made, and somehow think that you
are telling me something?

Glen on the other hand actually disagrees with me.

He claims that learning occurs only by adjusting a behavior
mediating function in response to consequences of its
behavioral output. An organism does something, that has
contingent results, and it is those contingencies that
control learning. There is no place in his view for
learning from mere correlations among environmental inputs
independent of behavior, there must be some sense in which
the controlling inputs are viewable as contingent on a
behavior that is to be modified.

I believe that he is mistaken, that adjustments in
function induced by correlations among signals not
contingent on behavior play an important role in
behavioral adaptation. My posting was intended to be
a counter to his position, a listing of several places
where functions are developed without reliance on
behavioral contingencies, which functions nevertheless
have critical bearing on subsequent behavior.

You seem to be taking the same stance as I am. You
speak of developmental processes that must occur for
a child to be ready to learn any particular lesson just
as I speak of developmental processes which must occur
before a system is able to detect and learn from
behavioral contingencies.

You seem to agree that these developments include the
same ones I cited as examples. Yet you frame your post
as one of disagreement. Can you explain this?

Bill

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