Re: Finding useful functions- part 1

From: Stephen Harris (cyberguard1048-usenet_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/26/04 

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:26:06 GMT

"Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwolfkir@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:BKufd.6594$rs5.515234@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Bill Modlin wrote:
> [...]
>> None of your post touches on the distinction I made between
>> algorithms
>> driven by contingencies of the output ("supervised") and other
>> algorithms driven by local correlations independent of such
>> contingencies.
>>
>> Explain to me again why that distinction was nonsense?
>>
>> Bill
>
> You assume that the "output" is different from "local correlations." From
> the P.O.V. of the neuron, there is no difference. What the neuron gets is
> local input. It has no way of distinguishing between an input that
> originates spontaneously in the connected neighbour cell(s) (which is what
> appears to be implied by "local correlations") and input that originates
> from some cell some distance away (ie, at least on intermediary cell
> away). IOW, there is no difference between the inputs originating in some
> environmental feedback and any other input. The neuron takes up some
> messenger molecule, this triggers changes within the cell, which
> eventually result in synaptic strengthening/weakening. But those messenger
> molecules aren't labelled "local" or "supervised feedback". NB that as far
> as current knowledge goes, learning at the neural level requires that
> genes be switched on and off. Again, the genes don't know whether the
> molecules that switch them are the result of local processes or more
> distant ones.
>
> If by "local correlations" you mean something other than differences in
> inputs (which --> cell firing --> synaptic strengthening/weakening), then
> your description thus far is misleading.
>

Perhaps, I don't really understand Bill's idea. I had in mind introspection
as in the expression of "learning from a painful experience". But of course
this has a root of experience in the environment. Otherwise, one would
have to assume it is God given.

Koch has a neurobiological model of mind which has two aspects.
One is more or less unconscious and generates something, I will call it
a representation which is the conscious mind. After sleep more
connections are made available to the conscious mind from something
we have tried to learn about. One would doubt that the conscious
mind fully determines the selection process.

There is probably something right about Quine's notion of internal
propensities which are inherited as that matched intuitions popularly.
I think the idea about instincts is still considered a theory.
Maybe Bill means something like that which has been incorporated
during our evolutionary history, still ultimately from environmental
interaction. Perhaps his idea appears to be more direct to environment
and genetic change than Darwin's selection of genes due to survival.

Certainly our intelligence and emotional maturity which are distilled
from the environment will contribute to getting enough food and
attracting a mate so that our genes get reintroduced into the gene pool
requires quite a bit of potential within the range of normalcy. This will
include what we are born with as well as how we are formed socially.
Besides the kitten there are feral children who can't learn to speak
after age 9-11 due at least in part to a reduced number of neurons.

Actually, I agree with Neil Rickert's comment:

"You posted a long wide ranging essay. But you never tried to make
clear which parts of it are dogma (or a priori assumptions, or
whatever else you want to call it).

If you want discussion, it would help if you would indicate which
parts are open to discussion, and which parts you expect us to assume
as the basis for discussion."

SH: I don't think Bill expressed his view specifically enough for your
criticism of it (which I went into in another post) to necessarily be
on target. What you said was true enough, but I'm not so sure that
it countered what he meant by his claim which I took to be content
rather than function and function seemed to be your focus of dispute.

Regards,
Stephen

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