Re: Tautologies and Empirical Truth

From: Lester Zick (lesterDELzick_at_worldnet.att.net)
Date: 10/28/04 

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:56:23 GMT

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:15:07 GMT, patty <pattyNO@SPAMicyberspace.net>
in comp.ai.philosophy wrote:

>Lester Zick wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:22:32 GMT, "Stephen Harris"
>> <cyberguard1048-usenet@yahoo.com> in comp.ai.philosophy wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Lester Zick" <lesterDELzick@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>>news:4180c3a7.71190262@netnews.att.net...
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:04:19 -0400, Wolf Kirchmeir
>>>><wwolfkir@sympatico.ca> in comp.ai.philosophy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Lester Zick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tautologies and Empirical Truth
>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In a frank discussion with Wolf Kirchmeir yesterday concerning whether
>>>>>>tautologies constitute empirical evidence he took occasion to remind
>>>>>>me quite candidly that tautologies are always true. And the moral he
>>>>>>drew from this was that tautological truths can't be empirical because
>>>>>>empirical observations are always problematic and tautologies are not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Then I got to pondering. It seemed a shame to have something that was
>>>>>>always true and not be able to draw some useful information from it.
>>>>>>Here was this beacon of universal truth, and we had no use for it. I
>>>>>>understood that philosophers and scientists consider tautologies
>>>>>>useless despite their universal truth. However, I decided that the
>>>>>>final chapter on usefullness of the tautology had yet to be written.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Always true" does not mean "universal truth."
>>>>
>>>>Aw, c'mon, Wolf, you're quibbling. If something is always true, it's
>>>>true for all things everywhere at all times. If it's not true for all
>>>>things everywhere, it's not true all the time. Totally irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>>Regards - Lester
>>>
>>>I am more sympathetic to Wolf's original point, which was something
>>>which is logically/tautologically true does not have an empircal (physical
>>>reality) implication. Of course if the premise is true about reality then
>>>the argument is called sound and then has an actual implication about
>>>reality, because you are essentially just stating a fact about reality.
>>
>>
>> So statements about reality which are true constitutes a sound
>> argument? A mere statement doesn't constitute an argument at all.
>>
>> I can appreciate where your sympathies lie, Stephen, but where does
>> your reason lie?
>>
>>
>>>The earth is roughly round because the surface always loosely fits a curve,
>>
>>
>> Which may be true but is hardly relevant to tautologies which
>> universally exclude alternatives. Observations like "a bachelor is
>> unmarried" or "the earth is round because it loosely fits a sphere"
>> are not tautologies, they're statements of definition.
>>
>> To make them tautologies you would have to add alternatives:
>>
>> "A bachelor is either married or unmarried"
>>
>> "The earth is either round or not round because it fits a sphere"
>>
>> in which cases the alternatives are self contradictory.
>>
>> Regards - Lester
>
>Yes, a sentence like "an unmarried man (bachalor) is either married or
>unmarried" is certainly self contradictory, but that is not our point.
>The point is that, one way or the other, that sentence is not about the
>world. It is about the language in which we are talking. That is the
>point that Kant, and Wolf, and Stephen, and i (but not Quine) have been
>trying to get you to acknowledge. If you at least acknowledge that
>(fact?) then perhaps we can get beyond this confusion and make some
>progress.

The reason I don't acknowledge that position, patty, is because it's
incorrect. The point that you, Kant, Wolf, and Stephan are making
(assuming they are all making it) is about the world as much as the
language they make it about is about the world. My language is about
the world. I can't speak for others. If their language is not about
the world then I suggest they stop using it and find some substitute.

Regards - Lester

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