Re: Tautologies and Empirical Truth

From: Stephen Harris (cyberguard1048-usenet_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/30/04 

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 06:06:43 GMT

"Stephen Harris" <cyberguard1048-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A6Ggd.36745$QJ3.27084@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Lester Zick" <lesterDELzick@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:4181bedf.75193516@netnews.att.net...
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:22:32 GMT, "Stephen Harris"
>> <cyberguard1048-usenet@yahoo.com> in comp.ai.philosophy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Lester Zick" <lesterDELzick@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>>news:4180c3a7.71190262@netnews.att.net...
>>>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:04:19 -0400, Wolf Kirchmeir
>>>> <wwolfkir@sympatico.ca> in comp.ai.philosophy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Lester Zick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tautologies and Empirical Truth
>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a frank discussion with Wolf Kirchmeir yesterday concerning
>>>>>> whether
>>>>>> tautologies constitute empirical evidence he took occasion to remind
>>>>>> me quite candidly that tautologies are always true. And the moral he
>>>>>> drew from this was that tautological truths can't be empirical
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> empirical observations are always problematic and tautologies are
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I got to pondering. It seemed a shame to have something that was
>>>>>> always true and not be able to draw some useful information from it.
>>>>>> Here was this beacon of universal truth, and we had no use for it. I
>>>>>> understood that philosophers and scientists consider tautologies
>>>>>> useless despite their universal truth. However, I decided that the
>>>>>> final chapter on usefullness of the tautology had yet to be written.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Always true" does not mean "universal truth."
>>>>
>>>> Aw, c'mon, Wolf, you're quibbling. If something is always true, it's
>>>> true for all things everywhere at all times. If it's not true for all
>>>> things everywhere, it's not true all the time. Totally irrelevant.
>>>>
>>>> Regards - Lester
>>>
>>>I am more sympathetic to Wolf's original point, which was something
>>>which is logically/tautologically true does not have an empircal
>>>(physical
>>>reality) implication. Of course if the premise is true about reality then
>>>the argument is called sound and then has an actual implication about
>>>reality, because you are essentially just stating a fact about reality.
>>
>> So statements about reality which are true constitutes a sound
>> argument? A mere statement doesn't constitute an argument at all.
>>
>> I can appreciate where your sympathies lie, Stephen, but where does
>> your reason lie?
>>
>
> Arguments are called valid if they are logically correct.
> Arguments are called sound if they are both valid and have a true premise.
> An argument consists of a premise and statements which follow to arrive at
> a
> conclusion.
>
> Rabbits are often white. (true premise)
> Some rabbits are pets for children. (supporting premise)
> Conclusion: Some pets for children are white.
>
>>>the argument is called sound and then has an actual implication about
>>>reality, because you are essentially just stating a fact about reality.
>>
>
> "Some pets for children are white." is a true statement about reality
> because it follows from the true premise "Rabbits are often white
> which is supported by "some rabbits are pets for children and leads
> to the true conclusion Some pets for children are white which is
> also a true statement about reality.
>
> Maybe you thought "argument" was meant to imply some type of dispute
> which has nothing much to do with a statement. An argument is a series
> of statements in logic without the implication of a dispute involved.
>
> My "reason lies" in being educated.
>

Tautological means circular.

> Rabbits are often white. (true premise)
> Some rabbits are pets for children. (supporting premise)
> Some pets for children are white.
Some white pets for children are rabbits.

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