Re: Darwin, Evolution, the Animal Kingdom, and Man

From: JPL Verhey (matterDELminds_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 12/05/04 

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 00:00:47 +0100

"Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwolfkir@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1KLsd.13462$dC3.147746@news20.bellglobal.com...
> cantueso wrote:
>> Wolf Kirchmeir <wwolfkir@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:<LSlsd.36356$kI6.1782812@news20.bellglobal.com>...
>>>cantueso wrote:
>>>>Wolf Kirchmeir <wwolfkir@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>>news:<oJ%rd.27156$kI6.1506597@news20.bellglobal.com>...
>>>>
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>>Bottom line: evolution is the effect of the interaction between
>>>>>genes and environment. Neither can work withouit the other.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>yes.
>>>>
>>>>but what is our story? about 6000 years?
>>>
>>>At least 150,000 years, or 5,000 - 10,000 generations. (We don't know
>>>the effects of past cultures on average generational span.)
>>
>>
>> I meant history. people that I can talk to. language does not make
>> sense outside the historical human sphere. when taling about nature,
>> use maths.
>
> I don't understand your question, then. Just what is your puzzle?
>
> [...]
>> I do not understand why these scientists keep pointing to those apes.
>> why can't I say that the algae are my ancestors? or fire and water?
>
> Who says you can't? "Ancestor" is a pretty elastic term. Your ancestor
> is merely some creature/person from which/whom you can trace your line
> of descent directly. Normally, that means just one member of a family
> in any one generation, not siblings. Thus, a brother or sister of your
> great-grandfather is not your ancestor, since his or her descendants
> are your cousins, not you. Unless of course there was cousin marriage
> in your family, in which case two siblings of a prior generation will
> both be your ancestors. Etc.
> Actually, there are a number of single-celled creatures with which we
> share common ancestors. All life on Earth has a common ancestor - if
> there was a life form that didn't evolve along the RNA-DNA path, we
> don't know about it, because it's left no descendants.
>
> If you want to go back far enough, we are all descended from
> supernovas, because those stellar events produced the heavy elements
> from which we are made.
>
>>>>do you think in that time there have been any changes in people
>>>>due
>>>>to genetic changes?
>>>
>>>Yes. Cro-Magnon humans, though very modern in all respects, had
>>>larger brains than modern humans.
>>
>>
>> ah, we are not talking about the same things. I was talking about the
>> animal that started to figure out how to leave its knowledge to the
>> children.
>
> Wrong question. Correct question is multiple; one of them is: Which
> animals developed imitative behaviour, and when? Seems to me that
> offspring who can imitate what adults do have an advantage.
>
> And adults don't need to be actively teaching for learning to happen.
> You haven't watched young animals much, or you would have realised
> this; all young mammals learn. Predators such as cats even offer
> "learning opportunities" to their young when they bring unkilled prey
> for the kits to play with. Have cats "figured out" how to teach their
> young? You could say so, but since we can't talk with cats, we can't
> tell. All we can do is observe their behaviour, which (allowing for
> differences in complexity) isn't that much different from what we do
> with our offspring.
>
> Anyhow, the young will learn only what their current stage of
> development (ie, the effects of their history to date) will permit
> them to learn, and nothing else. This means that "teaching" fails more
> often than not, even when both student and teacher believe it has
> succeeded. As a former teacher, I can tell you that "teach" should not
> be a transitive verb -- that grammatical quirk misrepresents what
> actually happens in the student-teacher relation, and causes no end of
> stupid and sometimes pernicious talk and action.
>
> Have we humans figured out how to pass on our knowledge? Yes, but not
> very well. If we really knew how to do it, and if we also knew what
> knowledge was worth passing on, human society would become pretty well
> perfect within a generation or two.
>
> See Dec 2004 Sci Am for a review of a book about orangutan culture.
> Seems like a book that will answer a number of your (and my)
> questions.

A scheme describing the phases of learning that you'll know of:

1. Unaware and unable. Not being aware of an inability.
2. Aware and unable. Being aware of an inability.
3. Being aware and able. Being aware that you're able.
4. Being unaware and able. The ability has been automated.

I find it an interesting question if this process is also *necessary*
for genetic evolution. I'd think so, and it would mean that our genetic
make-up also represents a long history of "painful" learning
("adaptation") all the way down to our oldest ancestors. (btw 2. and 3.
would be good candidates for sentience?)

This would also beg the question if knowlegde transfer as we know it in
our educational systems has to be repeated by every generation, or that
at one point knowledge (or the ability and speed to know) can become
hard-coded genetically.

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