Re: Darwin, Evolution, the Animal Kingdom, and Man

From: Greg Alexander (galexand_at_ozemail.com.au)
Date: 12/06/04 

Date: 5 Dec 2004 19:47:31 -0800

JPL Verhey wrote:
> "Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwolfkir@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> cantueso wrote:
>>> ah, we are not talking about the same things. I was talking about
>>> the animal that started to figure out how to leave its knowledge
to
>>> the children.
>>
>> Wrong question. Correct question is multiple; one of them is: Which
>> animals developed imitative behaviour, and when? Seems to me that
>> offspring who can imitate what adults do have an advantage.

So long as the environment changes over time, then learning from
adults would be an advantage (rather than having fixed inbuilt
behaviour).

>> And adults don't need to be actively teaching for learning to
happen.
>> You haven't watched young animals much, or you would have realised
>> this; all young mammals learn. Predators such as cats even offer
>> "learning opportunities" to their young when they bring unkilled
prey
>> for the kits to play with. Have cats "figured out" how to teach
their
>> young? You could say so, but since we can't talk with cats, we
can't
>> tell. All we can do is observe their behaviour, which (allowing for
>> differences in complexity) isn't that much different from what we
do
>> with our offspring.

> A scheme describing the phases of learning that you'll know of:
>
> 1. Unaware and unable. Not being aware of an inability.
> 2. Aware and unable. Being aware of an inability.
> 3. Being aware and able. Being aware that you're able.
> 4. Being unaware and able. The ability has been automated.

I like this as a way of understanding some learning.
Because of course, when a kitten is given unkilled prey to learn with,
it skips steps 2 and 3, doesn't it?

> I find it an interesting question if this process is also *necessary*
> for genetic evolution. I'd think so, and it would mean that our
> genetic make-up also represents a long history of "painful" learning
> ("adaptation") all the way down to our oldest ancestors.

I believe that these 4 steps are useful in many contexts. For example,
an animal that is "aware and unable" may be able to take steps to
become able, or work around it, or ask how to do something, etc. But I
don't understand why this would be *necessary* for genetic evolution -
could you explain?

> (btw 2. and 3. would be good candidates for sentience?)

For me, "being aware" and sentience are the same. Or am I
misunderstanding you?

>> Have we humans figured out how to pass on our knowledge? Yes, but
not
>> very well. If we really knew how to do it, and if we also knew what
>> knowledge was worth passing on, human society would become pretty
>> well perfect within a generation or two.

I hadn't thought of it that way. Hmmm!
Is there a field focussed on how to pass on knowledge more
effectively. I mean, psychology has the application side, and the
research side is relatively distinct. But teaching is largely
application. Does sociology research learning?
I wonder how our learning systems could be improved.

We do sometimes move from 1-4 directly (skip 2 & 3). I know some kids
who didn't know they couldn't swim. So while adults kept them safe,
they learned to swim. Maybe they went from 1, to 4, to 3? Similarly
for kids learning to walk etc.
I'm playing with this via 'NLP-modelling' at the moment.

Just my thoughts :)
Greg

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