Re: Religion center in the brain

Kali wrote:
In <4502c56b$0$24175$9a6e19ea@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Wolf K El_Lobo_Viejo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx said: : Kali wrote:
: > In <45022058$0$29445$9a6e19ea@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Wolf K : > El_Lobo_Viejo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx said: : > : Kali wrote:
: > : > In <1157752504.963352.179650@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Matt : > : > Menge mspmenge@xxxxxxxxxxx said: : > : > : : : [I think I've ascribed the quotes correctly below.]
: : [...]
: : [Sizemore:}
: > : > : > But in the final analysis, correlations between brain loci and observed
: > : > : > deficits etc. don't explain how neurophysiology mediates behavioral
: > : > : > function. But it seems that it does to a number of people. Neuroimaging has,
: > : > : > for many, become a sort of endpoint. I suggest that this is because their
: > : > : > conceptualization is now, and has always been, a thinly-disguised animism.
: > : > : > They already talk as if indwelling entities - call them homunculi - see
: > : > : > copies of the world, make decisions on that basis, and pull the levers that
: > : > : > make behavior occur. And now they think they know where the little men are
: > : > : > hiding in the brain.
: > : > : : [Kali:]
: > : > This strikes me as woefully out of touch. : : [Menge:]
: > : > : Haven't we analyzed the process of visual perception to the point where
: > : > : even different aspects of it have been localized to certain regions of
: > : > : the brain, kind of run in a parallel processing fashion?
: > : > : : > : > : Best Regards,
: > : > : : > : > : Matt
: : [Kali:]
: > : > Yes, although the system is less parallel than dynamic. I wonder : > : > who "they" (these referenced animists) are. : > : > : > : > Kali
: > : : [Wolf K.]
: : > : You're one, it seems.
: > : : It's not an assumption, it's a tentative inference, based on your : apparent support of the notion that "different aspects of perception are : localised in certain regions of the brain." This language usually goes : along with notions of perception happening in the brain, which in turn : leads to notions of perception being what the brain does. Or even what : individual neurons do.

End cells and stop cells are rather distinctive from one another, as are rods and cones, bipolar cells and ganglion cells, cellular layers in the lateral geniculate nucleus...

And yes, some functional aspects of perception are consistently correlated to neural activity in certain brain structures. We know this not just through neuroimaging (subtraction method) studies or lesioning but also through valid and reliable reaction time studies; Ann Treisman's work comes readily to mind.

We do seem to speak different languages.

Visual perception, as a functional process, physically occurs in the brain. Entirely. Present contradictory evidence and I'll consider it.

[...]

Kali

This seems to be partly a semantic argument, but there is one substantive point that must be made:

When I say the whole organism perceives, I mean that we attribute perceiving to an organism only because it behaves in a certain way in the presence of certain environmental entities (say light reflecting off stop sign.) If you, as driver of the car, slow down and stop before proceeding across the intersection, I infer that you have perceived the stop sign. I infer this even if you cannot, later, recall that you did in fact slow down and stop. If you recall that action, I infer that you "consciously perceived" the stop sign. But it was _you_, not your brain that did that.

Now you may, if you wish, talk about the brain processes implicated in seeing the stop sign, etc, as "perception." etc. But IMO that is a) confusing; and b) likely to mislead. What the organism does, and what its parts do, are not the same. The trouble with using the same terminology for both levels of analysis is that, whether we like it or not, hidden and implicit assumptions associated with the terminology will influence conceptualisation of both levels of analysis. That can only lead to error, and IMO will do so sooner rather than later.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Religion center in the brain
    ... :>: leads to notions of perception being what the brain does. ... When I say the whole organism perceives, ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: Religion center in the brain
    ... In, Wolf K ... apparent support of the notion that "different aspects of perception are ... along with notions of perception happening in the brain, ... End cells and stop cells are rather distinctive from one ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: Religion center in the brain
    ... :>: leads to notions of perception being what the brain does. ... :> End cells and stop cells are rather distinctive from one ... :> know this not just through neuroimaging ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: Religion center in the brain
    ... apparent support of the notion that "different aspects of perception are ... along with notions of perception happening in the brain, ... End cells and stop cells are rather distinctive from one ... facts; it entails taking some stance on, as I said, the sensibility of the ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • In the News: Brains Darwin Machine
    ... Alysson Muotri was looking for brain cells that glow ... Some neurons fire only when they perceive a straight vertical line, ... DNA sequence had altered brain cells. ...
    (talk.origins)