Re: RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE TO $120 AN HOUR!!

From: Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' ) (stderr2_at_backpacker.com)
Date: 06/11/04 

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:04:23 -0700

Volker Hetzer wrote:
>
> "Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:40C75096.4B1566DC@backpacker.com...
> >
> >
> > Volker Hetzer wrote:
> > >
> > > "Bill Bonde ( ``I could have nailed the St. Helena goat's pelt to the deck'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > > news:40C741C8.84713E8B@backpacker.com...
> > > > Why don't you let the market set the wages?
> > > I guess it comes down to the players not being equally strong.
> > >
> > How strong is a small businessman who might want to pay someone to sweep
> > up but can't see paying a high wage for that?
> Typically he rents the sweeper from someone more powerful.
>
What are you talking about?

> >
> >
> >
> > > Basically, on one side you have a bunch of poorly educated people swallowing
> > > all that unions-are-bad-stuff, playing alone, while on the other you
> > > have educated, psychologically and rethorically trained people who have no
> > > problem coordinating with each other.
> > >
> > I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that businesses have some
> > deal worked out to pay people low wages?
> You don't have "to work out a deal" for this. You just look at how much
> others pay and try to get lower.
>
Capitalism works because of a dynamic between those paying and those
getting paid. Of course those paying want to pay less for the job and
those working want to get paid more.

> > > Asking the guys you voted for for a wage increase is simply another way of
> > > banding together to increase leverage and buy some intelligent people to do
> > > the arguing for the poors.
> > >
> > But you are arguing for government running the economy again. That's
> > been shown not to provide for "the poors" as well as capitalism. Look at
> > the Soviet Union.
> It did indeed provide for the poor and better than capitalism (me coming from
> east germany having lived under essentially the same system) but that's not
> the point here and I agree that it has had a lot of other important flaws that
> rightly brought it down.
>
The communist system basically made everyone (except a very select group
in power) poor but not starving to death or freezing to death.

> But the government is part of society and the society runs the economy. It
> influences the market in many ways, like by enforcing safety standards, and (see
> below) minimum living standards according to the societies wishes as expressed
> by votes.
>
But what are 'minimum living standards'? Should everyone have their own
home bought for them free from the government? Or is a minimum just a
safe group accommodation, like a military barracks?

> This in addition to the market mechanism working according to the societies
> wishes as expressed by its buying/selling behavior.
>
The market works with the buying and selling of goods as well as labour.
If you want to empower low wage workers, find ways to lower their costs
of living.

 
> > > The other thing is how different socies think the universal declaration of human rights
> > > should be enforced and how much they are willing to pay for it. This value
> > > automatically dictates a lower bound for the minimum wage because no one needs
> > > to work for less.
> > >
> > If people have the human right to food, water and basic shelter, then
> > find ways to provide that human right, but don't pretend that that
> > should be forced on the market.
> But there is no way to separate this. If your society agrees that no one
> must starve then you either force them to work or you give them free
> food which, of course has a monetary value.
>
In America, there are many programmes that try to make sure that the
poor don't starve to death or freeze to death. These programmes are very
expensive, such as Food Stamps, and really try to recreate for the poor
what should be their goal in working, investing, pooling together as a
family unit. In other words, for some subset of the lower class, they
are getting a very expensive government subsidized version of being
reasonably well off which we can't afford to just replicate for
everyone. But even if we could, it should be noted that this system
discourages other efforts. If they get a better job, they lose various
government subsidies often in a dollar for dollar manner, or even worse.
It's almost like we want to encourage people being poor. Of course this
isn't limited to the United States.

> So, this is a force on the market
> either by driving wages down (forced labour) or up (no one needs to work
> as long as he doesn't want more than what he can get for free) depending on
> your solution.
>
I think we are close to being on the same page here. If you look at
Walmart, they are clearly gaming the government subsidy system so their
workers can be paid as little as possible and still remain as productive
as possible for Walmart. If you look at it, the system almost seems to
be designed to allow the poor to work for low wages at Walmart while
discouraging them from ever getting out of poverty. The question here is
how to change the system so that Walmart isn't given any advantages that
others don't get while taking away the 'desperation factor' that forces
someone to work at any wage that will just prevent them from freezing to
death or starving to death. I have some ideas on that although they are
regularly attacked by people who support the 'Liberal' side of political
arguments. 

-- 
"By the life of God, it doth even take my wits from me to think on it!
Here is such controversy between the sailors and the gentlemen, and such
stomaching between the gentlemen and sailors, that it doth even make me
mad to hear it. But, my masters, I must have it left. For I must have
the gentlemen to haul and draw with the mariner and the mariner with the
gentlemen. What! Let us show ourselves all to be of a company and let us
not give occasion to the enemy to rejoice at our decay and overthrow. I
would know him, that would refuse to set his hand to a rope, but I know
there is not any such here." -+Sir Frances Drake
(!!)

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