Re: Lucas: Shame on the redistributionists

From: Les Cargill (lcargill_at_bellsouth.net)
Date: 06/20/04 

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:48:53 -0400

The Trucker wrote:
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>
>>The Trucker wrote:
>>
>>
<snip>
>>It's nucking futs. But "we deserve it". Yeesh.
>
>
> You seem to be missing the point. It is not the price of the
> homes, but the price as measured in labor. If wages had kept
> pace with the price of land there would be no
> real problem.
>

That prices are outstripping wages indicates that
rank and file consumers can't do the math.

This demonstrates how pernicious the subsidy
effect can be. VA/FHA financing is a subsidy,
and the prices follow the usual path.

<snip>
>>>The people that the Pugs want to
>>>refer to as "home owners" are actually just renters because they
>>>refinance the house once a year to pay off the credit cards.
>>
>>They're nuts. I can't muster any sympathy for people who do
>>that.
>
>
> Who wants any "sympathy". Our current government is very supportive
> of this consumerism. It is the lie told a thousand times. The lie
> is that you can have all this stuff and not have to worry about the
> future.
>

The buck stops with the end customer. We all have to
sort through bad information.

<snip>
>>
>>Doubtfully. Prices only seem to go up, so far.
>
>
> If that is the case then the refinancers are doing the right thing.
> We both know that this is not the case.
>

We'll see. Repos are there, but not like they were 20 years
ago.

<snip>
>>
>>I don't do Konspiracy Theories. This is not wag the dog; these
>>are the statistics we have, by the standards we have them by.
>
>
> You give Der Fuhrer what he wants or you shall have no job. Is
> that a conspiracy?
>

There is no Fuhrer here. You only have end consumers who
do not behave in a manner consistent with their enlightened
self interest.

<snip>
>>Yeeeaugh. Wasn't engineered. Greenspan was paying out ( lowering )
>>rates dizzyingly.
>
>
> It was a Carter, Volcker, Reagan replay. The rate hikes started the
> year before the election and kept right on going till the bubble
> went kapowie.
>

I see it rather differently. This was an equity side
distrubance caused by the Asian Tigers collapse,
resulting in overheating in the U.S. domestic markets.

It was lubricated by Bernie Ebbers' hallucinatory
projections of growth rates of the Internet.

I don't really think rate adjustments were a
significant factor. Those were straight line
COGS items. BUt real ( meaning not pie-in-the-sky )
techcompanies got washed out by not lying about
rates of return. But ultimately, it was a
consolidaiton running under a boom.

<snip>
>>BTW - guess what's driving the housing prices? Refugee
>>stock equity from the downturn. Wait'll that turns around
>>and the Boomers start retiring in easrnest.
>
>
> Well, uh, no... The new money comes from government deficits.
> Ya see, if land was taxed and government spending on war, war, war
> was restrained then we would not have this distortion.
>
>

Even 100 billion is marginal in the grand scheme,
over the amount of time it'll ultimately take.
And military spending acts as a pretty effective
subsidy, unlike things like housing finance.

>>> It was a Carter Volcker Reagan replay.
>>
>>Hardly. Volcker was dealing with the 'Nam war debt.
>
>
> Partial credit. There was also the "War on Poverty" and the
> abandonment of the gold standard and the indexing of tax brackets.

I've never been convinced that the War on Poverty was
effective, but it was never that expensive. Outlays
to 'Nam dwarfed it.

Hatred of welfare was always a strawman in American
politics, until it became a security problem ala
Cabrini Green.

<snip>
>>Faux news is the ENGINE of this populism. People. Like. This.
>>Stuff. And NASCAR is the biggest spectator sport. Don't
>>you detect a pattern here?
>>
>>It's DUmbness. It's the cult of Dumbness, of Know-Nothingism, and
>>it's absolutely, totally grass roots.
>
>
> It is absolutely total lying and distortion and disinformation used to
> empower the well connected by misleading the majority.
>
>

I do not see this. You are asserting that there exists a
power class that tells each and every journalist and
writer what to write about. I am saying that the
audience *itself* says this.

<snip>
>>Who gives a flying instance of fornicaiton?
>
>
> Correct! But it keeps them (the great bewildered herd) distracted.
>

But the lowing herd wishes nothing more than distraction.

<snip>
>>That is simply not true. He wants to do what the church
>>communities in distressed areas have done, and try to get
>>leverege from existing politicial institutions to
>>support these community institutions.
>
>
> Yep. He wants leverage alright. The wacko religious nut cases are
> a big part of his base of support.
>

Those "nut cases" are usually people who've managed to use
the boilerplate of religion to be productive.

<snip>
>>It's not that great a variant on existing not-for-profit
>>stuff. It's also pragmatism of a very concrete type.
>
>
> It is a rip off.
>

No, it's a way to wave hands at it
without spending goummint cash.

<snip>
>>Maybe. Let's let the facts out with that little
>>abomination.
>>
>>I doubt even George Bush would state that he wanted
>>that sort of torture used on any prisoners.
>
>
> Of course he wouldn't. That means NOTHING. He is a liar and
> a thief and will do whatever is necessary to put fear and
> hate into everyone. That is his only out.
>

That is clearly inconsistent with his stated position
as a born again Christian. I do not see trading
in FUD here. I see quite the opposite. There is
nothing but positive ( even Positive ) spin.

<snip>
>>It has aspects of that, but it's different. I don't know
>>why people are offended by this. The nature of the conflict
>>directs this towards that. This is, by the way,
>>more than likely a design goal of the terrorists
>>The administration should recognize this, and avoid this
>>perception, but ... so it goes. *Shrug*.
>
>
> The real terrorists are the American occupiers of Arab lands. This
> is done with puppet governments and troops.

It's done because for a wealth of reasons, domestically
capable people to man the oil fields have not developed.

The Israelis understand that having Israelis man the
means of production is necessary for Israel to not be
a vassal-state. The Arabs do not seem to understand
this.

> It is the objective of
> this administration to create as much terrorism as possible by
> continuing to violate the sovereign religious morals of the Arab
> nations. Why don't you look at the IRA and the London bombings for
> a possible heads up on what causes YOUR definition of terrorism.
>

I'm reasonably familiar with 'em. It's much the same syndrome.

>
>>> But it puts the rich, a la
>>>Cheney and Co. above the law.
>>
>>Cheney isn't some kinda billionaire. He's just a simple
>>millionaire. And he is not above any law, although anybody
>>in any administration has certain privileges about that sort of
>>thing while in office.
>
>
> Horsecrap. Bush and Cheney should be brought to justice NOW. And
> if we had a real two party system and separation of powers they
> would both have been impeached by now.
>

But no serious criticism of these policies by the other party
seem to be in play.

<snip>
>>He shouldn't have been, but he was.
>
>
> It matters not. It is the same game being played by Bush in the
> torture deal. These people were plqaced in positions of authority
> and accountablity. They seem to abuse the authority and then want
> to escape the accountablity.
>

I find it simpler to say that the accountability systems
are more likely broken. This *does* indicate a deep flaw
in the administration, but I'm not sure what that really
means.

It probably means the Bushites are allergic to transparency.
Well, duh :)

<snip>
> Why is it that every criticism of this mess is instantly branded a
> charge of conspiracy? The Pugs did what they promise they would do
> if they were elected. Is party politics a conspiracy?
>

Because "your" hypothesis requires infeasible systems to
implement. Nobody can do this, at this level.

In order for there to be a universal effect, universal
causes must be in place.

Bush and co. represent a very real deep cultural
phenomenology, and it's been in evidence since 1980.

>
>> > Those that have power now operate with impunity as they hide
>>
>>>behind whatever MORAL issues they can drum up. Of course the favorite
>>>is FEAR of those Moslems.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>That just means that terrorism works. And it does.
>
>
>
> It certainly has worked under this totally Republican government. The
> Pugs KNOW that they NEED terrorism to stay in power.

Bush isn't even acting like a guy who's trying to stay in power.

> Bush has raised
> the status of these criminals to heights they could never have achieved
> absent the Republican need for war, war, war and the control that
> goes with it, the Republican (P)resident enabling the Republican
> Congress and the Republican Congress enabling the Republican
> (P)resident. If the head of the Republican regime tells the Republican
> Congress to declare war so as to empower their leader then that is
> exactly what the Republican lockstep Congress will do.
>

That's a very elegant oversimplification, but something like that.
Consider than LBJ also had a Dem. congrefs....

> http://www.greatervoice.org/econ/quotes/WarAndTheExecutive.php
>
>
>>>>If there is a corporation which represents things now, it
>>>>is WalMart. They are extraordinarily good at what they
>>>>do. They are also very fiscally conservative.
>>>>
>>>>AND THEY DO WHAT THE CUSTOMERS WANT THEM TO DO!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>http://GreaterVoice.org/econ/glossary/aristocracy.php
>>
>>Now this is a peice of work. Real aristocrats really are
>>the moral leadership. They won't survive otherwise.
>
>
> They can stuff their morals.
>
>
>>What you describe is closer to plutocracy. Aristocrats are
>>the soldier-statesman class, with possible brilliance in
>>other areas subbing in for soldiering.
>
>
> I'll keep what I have, thanx.
>

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