Re: The 'working poor' scam

From: The Trucker (mikcob_at_verizon.net)
Date: 07/05/04 

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:53:46 -0700

Johnny Marcos wrote:

> The Trucker <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in news:cc5a1u01bc7
> @news2.newsguy.com:
>
>>>>- fortunately in this country we can VOTE to change things
>>>>or choose with our pocketbooks and don't have to go to such extremes.
>>
>> WRONG! We will have two choices for president that can actually be
>> elected to the post.
>
> If enough PEOPLE get pissed off - the 2 guys running for office through
> their polls will find out what ISSUES are IMPORTANT to the people - for
> me it is immigration - I appear to be in the minority.

You just don't get it, do you? The objective is to make EVERYONE feel
that they are in the minority.

> I was going to
> vote for kerry - because I hoped he would not give free citizenship to
> illegals. Now he has - so when his pollsters call me they will find out
> he lost my vote and I will now vote for bush because that was the only
> issue for now that really matters to me and I don't need change now.

(snicker) So you are telling us that all the issues that you care
about have been discussed by the candidates, eh? You have no care
about inflation, taxation, medical care, war, or anything else? There
seems to be a difference in the two about deficits versus taxation
and you posted an article in which you seemed to be on the side
of taxation as opposed to deficits. Yet you now will vote for Mr.
deficit himself because the candidates are both wanting to allow
illegals. You may need to examine your reasoning.

> And as the publics perception change from day to day and the issues
> change and what it takes to get votes change -

The issues no not change. Only the preceptions.

> the candidates will be
> sensitive too - dewey defeats truman was because the pollsters had a
> disconnect between reality and expectation.

Well, actually, the defeat was not _caused_ by the pollsters.

> That there is a 50 50 split
> in the voters for the 2 guys shows that things are going along pretty
> good -

It is more likely a display of apathy on the part of a lot of people
who thought there was enough ammunition in the Bush record for Kerry
to actually take some contrary positions and make them hold up. That
just does not happen when your opponent has 10 times or more money
than you. "manufactured consent" is just too easily created by lots
of advertisement (propaganda). It is a long time until November.
You may see some surprises when we get close or you may not.

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/talks/9103-media-control.html

> not too many people pissed off one way or another - for if there
> were one candidate would have 90 percent in the polls and the other 10
> percent - what a DRAMATIC way to run a campaign - sensitive to the daily
> issues affecting people in their personal lives - if only ben franklin
> could have had it so good - they had to go to washington and vote for
> people they didnt talk too for over 5 or 6 months sometimes - maybe in
> those 6 months the peoples opinion changed and franklin would vote the
> wrong way. Thankfully immigration laws are not SOLELY determined by
> ther prez - but by congress - and if this country gives immigration to
> illegals - it is probably because the majority of the PEOPLE wanted it
> or either didn't CARE about it - if the majority do start CARING they
> can get it changed.

This perception that the (P)resident is supposed to make the laws or to
have anything to do with the making of laws is a major symptom of a
disease called ignorance. The Congress makes the laws and the president
signs these into existence. But the congress can make law in spite of
the wishes of the (P)resident and can impeach the (P)resident for not
enforcing these laws. A veto can be overridden and a (P)resident can
be removed. There is no such countervailing mechanism. The House of
Representatives is designed by our Constitution to the the seat of
power in the USA. The Problem is that this does not serve the
TwoParty, and thus the Constitution is ignored.

> All the others are not know and are feared
>> because they are not known.
>
> Campaigns are won or lost on how well they respond to the polls -
> questions to the individual citizens -

True enough: After the media tells the people what the issues are
and what the candidates have to say about these manufactured issues
then the people are asked about their opinions.

> the leviathan creates its own
> head - and that head must listen to the body or it gets voted out. If
> they start falling in the polls - they can adjust thier policy promises
> to reflect a greater percentage of the peoples will.

All true, but this does not put a discussion of election reform (IRV)
on the table for discussion, does it?

> All the others will be totally drowned
>> out by the media.
>
> The person is just a servant of the body - the policies are what matters
> - and if a man tries to run for office insensitive to the policies - he
> is going to lose on the day of voting. If Hitler gets up there and says
> he will stop nuclear proliferation and I believe him - I am going to
> vote for him.
>

http://GreaterVoice.org/econ/The_Mob.php

>> All the issues will be selected by the two parties
>
> The people ultimately determine the importance of the issues.
>
>> and any issue not selected by the two parties will simply remain
>> undiscussed
>
> I am sure no one wanted to discuss abu ghraib or bill clintons monica or
> jack ryans borg wife - but they got exposed and discussed and people
> made up thier minds and can make choices on that information. It is a
> LOT HARDER to keep things secret than it used to be.

But those are not "issues". They are distractions.

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/talks/9103-media-control.html

"...Walter Lippman, who was the dean of American journalists, a major
foreign and domestic policy critic and also a major theorist of liberal
democracy...argued that what he called a "revolution in the art of
democracy," could be used to "manufacture consent," that is, to bring about
agreement on the part of the public for things that they didn't want by the
new techniques of propaganda....

...He argued that in a properly-functioning democracy there are classes of
citizens. There is first of all the class of citizens who have to take some
active role in running general affairs. That's the specialized class. They
are the people who analyze, execute, make decisions, and run things in the
political, economic, and ideological systems. That's a small percentage of
the population... Those others, who are out of the small group, the big
majority of the population, they are what Lippman called "the bewildered
herd." We have to protect ourselves from the trampling and rage of the
bewildered herd...

...So we need something to tame the bewildered herd, and that something is
this new revolution in the art of democracy: the "manufacture of consent."
The media, the schools, and popular culture have to be divided. For the
political class and the decision makers have to give them some tolerable
sense of reality, although they also have to instill the proper beliefs.

......The people with real power are the ones who own the society, which
is a pretty narrow group. If the specialized class can come along and say,
I can serve your interests, then they'll be part of the executive group.
You've got to keep that quiet. That means they have to have instilled in
them the beliefs and doctrines that will serve the interests of private
power. Unless they can master that skill, they're not part of the
specialized class. They have to be deeply indoctrinated in the values and
interests of private power and the state-corporate nexus that represents
it. If they can get through that, then they can be part of the specialized
class. The rest of the bewildered herd just have to be basically
distracted. Turn their attention to something else....

...Propaganda is to democracy
what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state...."

>> and there will be no disagreement on real issues because
>> that is how party politics works.
>
> Party politics have to be sensitive to the polls if they want to get
> voted in, the green fungus growing in spain may wipe out the whole world
> in 2 years - the asteroid plummeting towards us may wipe out the whole
> world in 5 years - they are not currently important to the people - real
> issues get discussed when they really matter. If a voter has a car and
> a house and can watch homer simpson and no one bother him he is probably
> a happy guy sucking down his mcdonalds hamburger - trying to get that
> guy to vote is much harder than a starving mexican wanting to usurp
> government power.

The polls have nothing to do with consensus on issues that have
not been presented.

> The very powerful have selected
>> these two because they present the least threat and may have shown
>> that they can actually enhance the power of those already in
>> control. We will be asked to select the least offensive of the two.
>
> Ultimately, they have to be sensitive to the polls - the wishes of thier
> voters - they have gotten better at polling - we the people have gotten
> better at understanding and learning - you and I are hear discussing
> world events like no common man in ben franklins time could. Cnn and
> other news organizations brings news like no publisher could in ben
> franklins time. Hate and human suffering is the enemy - never forget>
that.

Hate and human suffering are, like "family values", just nebulous rhetoric.
Real issues are about the cause of and cure for hate and suffering.

>
>>>>- they don't even have to do A LOT of WORK to enact change -
>>>>just show up at the polls and VOTE - how much simpler do you want it?
>>
>> We do not have much of a choice in our vote.
>
> I promise you, if the people are PISSED OFF about ken lay and not HAPPY
> with what happens to him and really CARE they can DO something and it
> WILL get done. If the people dont care then what does it matter?

You obviously do not care if you will vote for Bush simply because you
think Kerry (supposedly) got soft on illegals thus eliminating that as
a factor.

> We get the lesser of
>> evils. But if Satan was running against George Bush I'd probably
>> have to vote for Satan.
>
> HAHA! Like I said if hitler or satan were going in ways I thought were
> bnenficial I would vote for them too - and if they were going against
> things I would vote for the other guy.

But if Bush and Kerry are the same on illegals and Kerry has no ties
to Kenny boy, and Kerry did not fabricate lies so as to invade Iraq,
then why would you vote for Bush?

>> Yup. But then they must also have someone to vote for that can
>> win.
>
> The policies win - not the person - I am going to vote at the local,
> state, federal level for policies, I am going to learn and share
> knowledge over the policies with citizens - the people voted in are the
> servant of the policies.

But what if the policies are the same (Which they more and more are)?

> If you hate a tax cut and so do most of the
> other voters that are going to vote - the parties will be sensitive to
> this. If every citizen of this nation said NO MORE tax cuts and we will
> vote against any politician that does do a tax cut - there are not going
> to be tax cuts - that is how our system works.

You will Vote Republican though they want more tax cuts and you don't.
Very strange logic, that.

> You are worried about
> bush and his fellows getting too powerful - if the head of the leviathan
> gets too powerful and moves in ways the body does not like - the body
> chops them down - it has always happened - always will.

That should be the case this November. But we still have voters that
vote very illogically.

>>> Education. And that Mises and his ilk lay off the campaign of
>>> disinformation.
>>
>
> What if everyone is educated - they know all these issues - they just
> dont care to vote or are too lazy - the market has spoken - what are you
> bitter about then? That they didn't choose YOUR way?

I think his position is that you have presented a false premise. His
position is that the people are misinformed, mislead, purposefully
uneducated in economics and constantly lied to. People are simply not
all that lazy or apathetic on their own. They must be isolated and
made apathetic by constant propaganda/advertising.

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/talks/9103-media-control.html

"The people in the public relations industry aren't there for the fun of it.
They're doing work. They're trying to instill the right values. In fact,
they have a conception of what democracy ought to be: It ought to be a
system in which the specialized class is trained to work in the service of
the masters, the people who own the society. The rest of the population
ought to be deprived of any form of organization, because organization just
causes trouble. They ought to be sitting alone in front of the TV and
having drilled into their heads the message, which says, the only value in
life is to have more commodities or live like that rich middle class family
you're watching and to have nice values like harmony and Americanism.
That's all there is in life. You may think in your own head that there's
got to be something more in life than this, but since you're watching the
tube alone you assume, I must be crazy, because that's all that's going on
over there...."

>>> I want people to learn the truth.
>>
>> And I want them to be able to act on it. The place that SHOULD matter
>> is the House of Representatives. The (P)resident in this country
>> is supposed to damn well do what the Congress tells him.
>
>
> If enough VOTERS share your concerns - change will happen - it always
> has and always will - peace dude.
>
> If people let thier vote get taken from them, they didn't care enough to
> stop it, if the head gets too far out of control, they will chop it off
> - if it tries to kill them before they do it - it destroys its own body
> and dies with the body. The politicians know they have to be sensitive
> to the voters - a starving mexican is probably a more motivated voter
> than a fat lazy couch potato. the market speaks and the market always
> knows best.

The misinformed market does NOT know best. 

-- 
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