Re: More on Ecological Economics.

From: O18-C-O16 (hcf32_at_yahoo.no)
Date: 07/05/04 

Date: 5 Jul 2004 16:33:09 -0700

Johnny Marcos <johnny5@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns951D283898783Johnny5yahoocom@65.32.1.7>...
> AJFeeney48@yahoo.com (JohnAndrew) wrote in
> news:2fcaf67c.0407041314.1a0d0866@posting.google.com:
>
> > As for your comments about the intelligent getting the supposed
> > right to eat the unintelligent, and your argument that
> > Jews have been carrying on some kind of genetics and/or breeding
> > experiment for thousands of years to produce smarter people --
> > I'm leary of this kind of reasoning.
>
> Look at the diets, marriage practices, breeding programs as laid out in
> the old testament - it is practically a UBER man scientists manual.
>
> Jerry Sienfeld is a smart funny guy - 3000 years of selective breeding as
> based on old testament doctrine has yielded great fruit.
>
> > I'm part Jewish, part English/Irish/German by ancestry, and
> > most of my friends and girlfriends have been Jewish, and
> > the Jewish friends I like the best don't purport to be genetically
> > superior to other people.
>
> You don't have too be aware of your higher collective IQ for it to be a
> reality.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#IQ_Gap_Among_Races
>
> The mean score for people of East Asian and Jewish descent is usually
> higher than the mean score of whites, but the extent of that difference
> is not precisely known. However, most studies place the median IQ of
> Ashkenazi Jews (who make up the overwhelming majority of American Jews)
> at approximately one standard deviation above the mean for other whites.
> Note that in a normal distribution, only about 16% of the population is
> at least one standard deviation above the mean.
>
> They also don't propose to "eat"
> > other people or be eaten in return, thank you.
>
> Not literally, but in competition for resources the smartest often rise
> to the top.
>
> > I think the
> > historic accidents that led the ancient priests of Israel
> > to declare their people "God's chosen people," and the historic
> > accidents that made a Jewish breakaway sect, Christianity,
> > central to the development of Europe have led a number of
> > Jews and many anti-Semites alike to become crazily
> > obsessed with the notion of Jewishness.
>
> Take the garden of eden - assume 2 people with much less genetic
> breakdown than we have now among most people - adam lived to be what 900
> years - so assume genetically he was much superior to most people today -
> start interbreeding them with thier children - from what I am reading you
> can do this for a long time before you really start having problems.
>
> Assume down into the population many generations - you start controlling
> diet and futher breeding - you know a wolf, lassie, and the taco bell
> chihuahua are practically identical genetically. Assume 3000 years of
> selective breeding - average human generation 30 years - 100 generations
> of descendants - maybe someone more well read in this area can chime in -
> but 100 generations down with good diet, good breeding policies - what
> kind of difference can you expect?
>
> > From what I've read about the life of British prime
> > minister Benjamin Disraeli, who was born Jewish but converted
> > to Anglicanism in the early 1800s, Disraeli for reasons
> > of personal aggrandizement did a lot to invent the concept
> > of "race."
>
> You take an 87 IQ individual and breed them with a 56 IQ individual - go
> out 5 generations - what have you got? Take a 140 Iq jew with a 130 Iq
> jew what have you got? Jewish America seems to be the smartest race in
> the world - collectively as a nation Hong Kong seems to have the highest
> average IQ at 107 - and we gave them back to china - what a smart move -
> giving a world trade center and the smartest businessmen in the world to
> a communist regime - this could have serious consequences soon - pray for
> taiwan.
>
> Hollywood is the birthplace of many good ideas - I read a lot of jews
> rules or ruled there. Be proud of your heritage.
>
> > Disraeli wanted to see himself as a superior man, a
> > British equivalent to that military and political genius
> > Napoleon, and he obviously couldn't
> > do this on the basis of his religious traditions, because
> > he'd abandoned them. So he came up with the notion that
> > "pure Jewish blood" was some big deal, some uniquely
> > qualifying characteristic that would make him a better political
> > leader than his English rivalries.
>
> Today on the race track is it the purebred horse or purebred greyhound
> that wins the races or the mutts?
>
> And, in the view of
> > Hannah Arendt, author of "On the Origins of Totalitarianism,"
> > Disraeli in this way helped to popularize a concept of
> > Judaism and race that has resulted in Jews being persecuted
> > and killed on a grand scale over the past century.
>
> I don't want to kill you, but when the barbarians of rome saw all that
> wealth they wanted to take it, and perhaps with your collective IQ - it
> doesnt have to be a big difference - your race begins to take over the
> businesses, arts, governments - and the nazi's see this and like atilla
> the hun want your wealth that your higher IQ provided you and take it by
> force. It is not your ethnic or cultural history that makes the
> barbarians jealous - it is your intelligence and the fruits that deliver
> you - you can't help it that you rise to the top - it is in your genes.
>
> You control hollywood because you are smarter. You are the product of
> one of the best long running genetics programs ever to exist.
>
> > I'm not a professional geneticist, although
> > I did study genetics in college,
>
> You should have some great resources to verify any of this or disqualify
> it then.
>
> but I think the whole
> > racial discourse is mostly nonsense, the invention of certain
> > social and political elites who wanted a good moral excuse
> > for their priviliged lives and thought they had found one
> > in the writings of Darwin. Obviously, you may disagree. But
>
> Well debate enlightens both of us, and together we can increase each
> others knowledge of the issues.
>
> > while individual genetic differences exist, I think
> > one naked ape is a lot like another naked ape, and we
>
> Possibly true, but put the taco bell chihuahua on a race track and a
> greyhound on a racetrack and who wins the race and gets to eat the bunny?
> Genetically they evolved from the same parents and I believe those
> parents only go back 100 or 150 years maybe I am wrong. The differences
> don't have to be that wide on a complex societal scale. If your people
> are 101 IQ and mine are 99 IQ collectively - over time your people are
> naturally going to ascend into positions of control, riches, and power.
>
> We are all good and happy though, everyone is helping everyone else - but
> mexico boy comes in, he has an 80 IQ, guinea boy comes in he has a 56 IQ,
> me and you and slant eye have 100, 104, and 107 IQ. Try as hard as he
> might mexico boy and guinea boy can't ever seem to get ahead - they are
> working thier little brains so HARD and they just aren't catching up to
> me and you and slant eye. We seem to breeze through school, make good
> movies, rise in business - and all they can seem to figure out is how
> come thier name tag always say janitor - but they have one advantage -
> they havent gotten so smart yet that they don't want to have lots of low
> IQ babies - so me and you and your jewish chick friends dont want to give
> up our good lifestyles by having kids and being slaves to thier
> upbringing but mexico and guinea have lots of babies - and they are
> pissed off, because no matter what they do they cant seem to make
> starwars or kosher hot dogs and we can effortlessly - the barbarians use
> thier swollen number to burn our ivory towers.
>
> Look its simple economics - the greater the disparity between the rich
> and poor - the more potential for burning ivory towers - the greater
> disparity for dumb and smart - same thing.
>
> > tend to make ourselves crazy and violent when we start
> > to believe otherwise.
>
> I don't consider myself crazy or violent or you either - I like sienfeld,
> he makes me laugh, and I am sure in 1920's germany the germans were
> probably great friends with thier jewish nieghbors - but if severe
> turmoil strikes - what do the barbarians and low IQ thugs usually do?
> topple the ivory towers no? Go after the ones with more than they have
> got - thier brothers of just yesterday they view as thier enslavers of
> today - God cursed you as a test of your faith I guess - putting a smart
> woody allen in the middle of a bunch of hungry gorillas and there is only
> 1 banana in the cage - who wins? I think woody said in one of his movies
> - had he grown up in an indian village and been a comedian that wouldn't
> have done much for his life - he would have starved from lack of being a
> good buffalo hunter - but he came up in a society that values smarts over
> strong legs and agressive tendancies so he rose to the top - and look how
> we want to knock him down just cause he wants to get some young split
> tail. The barbarians are growing.
>
> > There's also good reason to think that inherited culture
> > plays a very important role in human behavior; it's not
> > all DNA.
>
> Very true, anthropology seems to be lost on many economists - damn shame
> too as it is the very study of history of previous economic success or
> failure.
>
> > Historian William MacNeill, formerly of the
> > University of Chicago, argues in his grand history of
> > civilization, "The Rise of the West," that when we go
> > back to the beginnings of the agricultural era in
> > about 7,000 BC, we find different peoples showing very
> > different characteristics with respect to violence and
> > aggression, mostly based on their ways of getting a living.
>
> You don't have to go that far back
>
> http://anthro.palomar.edu/social/soc_3.htm
>
> There are many potential environmental influences that help to shape
> personality. Child rearing practices are especially critical. In North
> America, children are usually raised in ways that encourage them to
> become self-reliant and independent. Children are often allowed to act
> somewhat like equals to their parents. For instance, they are included
> in making decisions about what type of food and entertainment the family
> will have on a night out. Children are given allowances and small jobs
> around the house to teach them how to be responsible for themselves. In
> contrast, children in China are usually encouraged to think and act as a
> member of their family and to suppress there own wishes when they are in
> conflict with the needs of the family. Independence and self-reliance
> are viewed as an indication of family failure and are discouraged. It is
> not surprising that traditionally Chinese children have not been allowed
> to act as equals to their parents.
>
> To me this says china is a unified people of self sacrifice. Now in that
> cage we have me and you and woody allen in one corner, mexico boys in
> another, gorilla boys in another, and 1.1 billion unified chinese all
> fighting for that banana - who wins? If china were democratic, I might
> not be so worried, but our liberal policies are going to collapse when up
> against state sponsored chinese monopolies.
>
> > Thus the early humans who depended on hunting and gathering
> > for survival had some capacity for violence, MacNeill
> > reasons; they had to, to be good hunters. However, once
>
> http://anthro.palomar.edu/social/soc_3.htm
>
> Benedict compared the typical personalities of the 19th century North
> American Plains Indians with those of the farming Pueblo Indians of the
> American Southwest. She said that the buffalo hunting Plains Indians
> had personalities that could be typified as being aggressive, prone to
> violence, and seeking extreme emotional states. In contrast, she said
> that the typical Pueblo Indian was just the opposite--non-aggressive,
> peaceful, and sober in personality.
>
> > So are human beings today peaceful anarchists, or brave
> > and lawless desperados, or organization men willing to
> > work and kill and die for kingdom or religion?
>
> Depends on how safe and secure they feel. I lived in Hawaii in 1983 or
> so - Hurrican Iwa came through the islands - we were on a military base -
> rich officers and e8 and e9 enlisted men in my small housing area - very
> ordered and disciplined men - good honest god fearing soldiers - well
> hurricane iwa knocked out power, there was no clean water - we were not
> connected to the mainland so all the reserves were gone in a few days, I
> saw secure educated disciplined men almost break down to the point of
> killing thier neighbor over water and perceived early death - luckily
> before too many people were violently bashing each others brains in they
> got some water and food into the housing areas - a few people went to the
> hospital for a very long time from the small outbreaks of violence over
> resources - i don't recall if anyone was killed.
>
> LA riots another larger example with less disciplined citizens - if
> people are full of hate or fear - things go to *** fast. Does mexico
> boy go to his neighbor mexico boys house and start robbing and burning or
> does he come to your ivory tower and rape that jewish girlfriend you got
> and steal that fine kosher hotdog you made?
>
> Judging
> > from MacNeill's work, we're a bit of all three, or have
> > the potential for all three.
>
> Absolutely.
>
> But not primarily because
> > of our DNA, for our cultural inheritance enormously shapes
> > how our DNA is expressed.
>
> In a controlled complex society over time, the slightly higher IQ
> individuals will rise to the top and then when the barbaric thugs get mad
> or fearful enough - the ivory towers are knocked down and burned.
>
> I am on your side Jew, I like the movies you make for me and appreciate
> you using those smarts to make me laugh - laughing is good, but the
> barbarians are at the gate and we are welcoming them with open arms, and
> being thier is such a disparity between mine and your intelligence and
> thiers - that usually only ends one way - when thier numbers get big
> enough - violence.
>
> It is not a racial issue affecting this country - it is one of
> commonality.
>
> Blackie is going to buy a 200 nike shoe instead of a book by hobbes
> because his brain is not genetically evolved enough like yours. The
> great social experiment of desegregation failed - it could have worked if
> they got us interbreeding immediately and average out the IQ's - they
> didn't and now laws of scarcity and mother nature will fix their lack of
> foresight in a brutal way.

Your point of views reminds me of a ~100 years old book I once came
across discussing personality and behavior of different 'local
breeds' found in Norway. Norwegian inlanders and Swedes had, according
to the author being an inlander himself, the purest superior high
quality Nordic genes. The coastal population - (polluted with latino
or sami genes, can't quite recall) - recognised by darker hair and
generally less Nordic look; short tempered, ill mouthed, cunning or
even criminal. The Sami,. no need to mention what he writes.
An other old textbook, having an author from the coast this time,
concludes:
Inlanders; somewhat slow talking, introvert individuals lacking
initiative and dominated by a rather provincial attitude.
Coastal population; Talkative, quick, brave, intelligent and so on.

My question is what make you so certain that for instance Jerry
Sienfelds theories:

> Jerry Sienfeld is a smart funny guy - 3000 years of selective breeding as
> based on old testament doctrine has yielded great fruit.

Isn't just advanced name calling like that found in old textbooks
influenced by rather nonscientific, self glorifying and dumb social
darwinism.