Re: The 'working poor' scam

From: Johnny Marcos (johnny5_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 07/06/04 

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:17:26 GMT

The Trucker <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in
news:cca8m702acn@news1.newsguy.com:

> Johnny Marcos wrote:
>
> (snicker) So you are telling us that all the issues that you care
> about have been discussed by the candidates, eh? You have no care
> about inflation, taxation, medical care, war, or anything else?

Voters don't vote because they don't care or don't feel it will make a
difference who is up there. War, inflation, rich bush or rich kerry -
rich being the key qualifier - you think there will be a difference?

If we don't stop this trend of mexicans I think serious civil unrest is
going to escalate - that is more important to me - social unrest with the
mexican neighbor living next door to me.

  There
> seems to be a difference in the two about deficits versus taxation
> and you posted an article in which you seemed to be on the side
> of taxation as opposed to deficits.

I am my own devils advocate sometimes, I am in information and thoery
collection mode right now - when I have absorbed all the ideas I can from
all sides then I will put my decisions together - probably the hour
before I vote for prez.

Mises says taxation fights inflation - seems right to me, but right now
everything I buy says made in china and Mosler says we need to keep
borrowing into infinity as long as these suckers are willing to send us
FREE goods for worthless treasuries. Like we did the european investors
in the 1840's - took their dollars, built out our roads and canals and
then walked away from the debt - what could britain do? They couldn't
come collect by force - we already kicked thier ass too many times in the
past.

Normally I have been taught stiffing your creditors is a bad thing, but
china is a communist country - they are growing thier war machine and
military spending - and in the name of world peace perhaps sticking it to
them is in the best interest of mankind. Recently thier FDI went above
ours - I think this parallels what happened in Nazi Germany - the
socialist war machine got financing and away she went - ww2, I don't like
it that a communist country is growing in economic power and even more so
in military spending. Whats the best way to get the FDI to go down in
China - break thier war spending?

  Yet you now will vote for Mr.
> deficit himself because the candidates are both wanting to allow
> illegals. You may need to examine your reasoning.

Mosler basically says china is sending us free goods for treasury notes -
notes we can walk away from like we did europe in 1840 if necessary.
Everything in my walmart says made in China, I don't know about yours -
but they are gutting our manufacturing base - growing thier military
spending - europe is talking about lifting the 15 year arms embargo on
china - 1.1 billion communists raised from child birth to die for the
cause of the state scares me. Extrapolate out a few years - we put in a
guy who keeps the debt honest, keeps china growing and pays off our notes
they get stronger while the mexicans make us get weaker and we have civil
war, china comes in with thier new military machine and 1.1 billion and
economically we are broke as a nation and the new world superpower is
communist - or we put in a crook that is good at breaking sucker greedy
investors - let china take our promise to pay worthless IOU - suck
whatever we can from them and then break the promise to pay and send the
world down in economic ruin but come back out of the ashes like the
phoenix with democratic USA still number 1 and democracy is still the
superpower, not state controlled slave nation china.

>> the candidates will be
>> sensitive too - dewey defeats truman was because the pollsters had a
>> disconnect between reality and expectation.
>
> Well, actually, the defeat was not _caused_ by the pollsters.

The incorrect newspaper headline was caused by the pollsters disconnect
from reality.

> It is more likely a display of apathy on the part of a lot of people
> who thought there was enough ammunition in the Bush record for Kerry
> to actually take some contrary positions and make them hold up.

Apathy, agreed.

> You may see some surprises when we get close or you may not.

It will be an interesting ride.

> This perception that the (P)resident is supposed to make the laws or
> to have anything to do with the making of laws is a major symptom of a
> disease called ignorance.

Congress makes laws, prez can veto them - prez can make backroom deals
with guys that make laws in congress.

 The Congress makes the laws and the
> president signs these into existence. But the congress can make law
> in spite of the wishes of the (P)resident and can impeach the
> (P)resident for not enforcing these laws.

And can make back room deals with prez and his rich base.

  A veto can be overridden
> and a (P)resident can be removed. There is no such countervailing
> mechanism. The House of Representatives is designed by our
> Constitution to the the seat of power in the USA. The Problem is that
> this does not serve the TwoParty, and thus the Constitution is
> ignored.

I think jefferson said the const was only good for a moral and just
people, it wouldnt work in a nation of thieves and crooks - prez backroom
deals with congressmen not policed by constitution. More lawyers hold
seats in congress than any other profession, lawyers are greedy crooks -
you think they are making backroom deals?

> True enough: After the media tells the people what the issues are
> and what the candidates have to say about these manufactured issues
> then the people are asked about their opinions.

I look out my door - I see Speedy Gonzales working for 3 dollars an hour,
I go to walmart and see made in china all over the place - I don't need
the media to tell me these are bad things.

>> If they start falling in the polls - they can adjust thier policy
>> promises to reflect a greater percentage of the peoples will.
>
> All true, but this does not put a discussion of election reform (IRV)
> on the table for discussion, does it?
>

Greedy lawyers in congress, greedy rich kerry or greedy rich bush, all of
them shareholders in greedy rich multicorps, big backroom deals going on,
only a fool would think there isn't. Going up against greedy rich crook
commies - who you want? Nice honest guy who can't think in evil ways -
or theiving snake of a lawyer johnny cochrane types to help you beat evil
crook commies?

> http://GreaterVoice.org/econ/The_Mob.php
>
> But those are not "issues". They are distractions.

Haha true!

> who are out of the small group, the big majority of the population,
> they are what Lippman called "the bewildered herd." We have to protect
> ourselves from the trampling and rage of the bewildered herd...

The head of the leviathan is supposed to lead its people.

> ...So we need something to tame the bewildered herd, and that
> something is this new revolution in the art of democracy: the
> "manufacture of consent."

Polling is done every day - that leviathanic head is getting QUICK feed
back from its body.

 The media, the schools, and popular culture
> have to be divided. For the political class and the decision makers
> have to give them some tolerable sense of reality, although they also
> have to instill the proper beliefs.

The market knows best - sometimes the head gets too far in disconnect
with the body that creates it and it will fall if this happens.

> ......The people with real power are the ones who own the society,
> which is a pretty narrow group.

Thought control, pink floyd right? In my country I have access to the
digital library of alexandria - not in china - they have thought control
down much better than we do here - you are saying thought control is the
biggest enemy then?

 If the specialized class can come
> along and say, I can serve your interests, then they'll be part of the
> executive group. You've got to keep that quiet. That means they have
> to have instilled in them the beliefs and doctrines that will serve
> the interests of private power. Unless they can master that skill,
> they're not part of the specialized class.

The best politicians are the ones who can get the most votes - I didn't
want mexicans being given free citizenship - they are going to vote for
candidates and parties that give it to them - so bush and kerry are both
bringing in speedy gonzales in droves.

 They have to be deeply
> indoctrinated in the values and interests of private power and the
> state-corporate nexus that represents it. If they can get through
> that, then they can be part of the specialized class. The rest of the
> bewildered herd just have to be basically distracted. Turn their
> attention to something else....

Some people just want to watch homer simpson - he is funny. It's a lot
harder to keep a secret than it used to be.

> ...Propaganda is to democracy
> what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state...."

I can hear about michael moore - I can hear the plus and minus of the
views - those that want censorship are the enemy. Do they censor in
China?

>> Party politics have to be sensitive to the polls if they want to get
>> voted in, the green fungus growing in spain may wipe out the whole
>> world in 2 years - the asteroid plummeting towards us may wipe out
>> the whole world in 5 years - they are not currently important to the
>> people - real issues get discussed when they really matter. If a
>> voter has a car and a house and can watch homer simpson and no one
>> bother him he is probably a happy guy sucking down his mcdonalds
>> hamburger - trying to get that guy to vote is much harder than a
>> starving mexican wanting to usurp government power.
>
> The polls have nothing to do with consensus on issues that have
> not been presented.

The asteroid going to hit us in 5 years is not important to the people -
things bubble up as they matter.

>> publisher could in ben franklins time. Hate and human suffering is
>> the enemy - never forget>
> that.
>
> Hate and human suffering are, like "family values", just nebulous
> rhetoric. Real issues are about the cause of and cure for hate and
> suffering.

You and I can talk about those causes and cure - they can't do that in
China.

>> I promise you, if the people are PISSED OFF about ken lay and not
>> HAPPY with what happens to him and really CARE they can DO something
>> and it WILL get done. If the people dont care then what does it
>> matter?
>
> You obviously do not care if you will vote for Bush simply because you
> think Kerry (supposedly) got soft on illegals thus eliminating that as
> a factor.

Clinton should have lost office when he lied under oath - that sets a
trend that you can lie to the american people and its A OK. BUt he never
had sexual relations with that woman - hugh grant admitted elizabeth
hurley was being a *** bitch and he had to go pay a black hooker to get
off his rocks - he said I am sorry - I can deal with that - I can forgive
that - I cannot forgive clinton lying on oath - I liked him until that
point. Yes we are lied too - thought control is bad - lets all work to
expect more from our leaders. There are a lot of issues to discuss and
still a lot of time til the vote, my choice is not set in stone. No
matter how evil the guy is going in the chair - he gets 8 years tops -
its a pretty good system - how do you want to change it?

> But if Bush and Kerry are the same on illegals and Kerry has no ties
> to Kenny boy, and Kerry did not fabricate lies so as to invade Iraq,
> then why would you vote for Bush?

People get up and vote when they think they can enact change - keep the
masses happy - they will not bother - I never said I was going to vote
for bush - I WAS going to vote for kerry - but now that they share the
same policy on illegals - I may not vote at all because I don't see a lot
of difference between Rich Kerry and Rich Bush - rich being the key
qualifier. As we get closer I will listen at more policy choices - thier
polling will reflect what people want to happen - and through this
circular loop refinement will be made.

> But what if the policies are the same (Which they more and more are)?

Well think about that for a second - remove PERSON from your political
thought process - dont think you are voting in a PERSON to office - think
of it as your are voting in a set of POLICY into the prez seat.

Now as the pollsters refine each day what policy matters to the body of
the leviathan - the head is going to respond to that and adopt policy to
reflect the wishes of its body - or the head will be cut off - wether the
head is bush or kerry or red or blue doesn't really matter does it?
When people vote - the policy is what I hope they are voting for and
hopefully by the time the election has come the policy has been
thourougly discussed and the body makes its best collective decision on
what policy will guide it for the next 4 years.

We may even get to a point where the person that executes the policy is
not important - we set down a bunch of things to happen and a guy makes
it happen - the policy being more important than the guy - he is just our
tool - he can be anybody. party politics may not be efficient anymore.

> You will Vote Republican though they want more tax cuts and you don't.
> Very strange logic, that.

I was going to vote for kerry over immigration policy - the men involved
in this process dont concern me - the policies do - I want to stop the
illegals. Now that they share the same policy - I may not vote at all.

I am not sure I want more tax cuts - again this gets back to my whole
question of FDI going to china - tax cuts will increase the spending -
send us deeper into debt - china is sending us lots of stuff now for
treasury securities - they wont let thier yuan float - I really hate a
government that does not let its citizens have political dissent - that
is anti freedom to me - greedy investors are sending them dollars to
finance thier growth and growing war machine - keeping our dollar honest,
increasing taxes - curbing inflation and deficit growth keeps this
process going - the gutting of our manufacturing and their growth
continue right along - that may be good for the individual american - is
it good for the world? getting more and more of thier goods for gubbment
paper - increasing the deficit to such monstrous levels it causes
economic collapse - the world goes into protectionist mode and from these
ashes america rises as the only superpower and we cut off the gutting of
our country to china and the FDI into china. You think Bush is Bad, I
think China is bad - if I can use bush to sink China - have I not served
what I perceive to be the greater threat to freedom and world peace?

These are things I will think about some more.

>> You are worried about
>> bush and his fellows getting too powerful - if the head of the
>> leviathan gets too powerful and moves in ways the body does not like
>> - the body chops them down - it has always happened - always will.
>
> That should be the case this November. But we still have voters that
> vote very illogically.

The market knows what is best for itself - the best we can do is try to
learn from history and not repeat the same mistakes because our vision
was too short sighted - get the market more educated and looking farther
back and farther ahead than it does now - america helped fund the nazi
war machine because we looked at short term goals and profit instead of
the long term consequences. In my list of priorities fighting gubbments
that are resistant to change and censor thier citizens seem to be at the
top. China seems to be the biggest worst threat in this regard - you
dont agree?

>> What if everyone is educated - they know all these issues - they just
>> dont care to vote or are too lazy - the market has spoken - what are
>> you bitter about then? That they didn't choose YOUR way?
>
> I think his position is that you have presented a false premise. His
> position is that the people are misinformed, mislead, purposefully
> uneducated in economics and constantly lied to.

CLinton lied to me, gary hart lied to me, I agree honesty is important -
that we tolerate anyone that lies to us sets a bad precedent - clinton
should have lost his office. Misinformation is bad. As the lies get
exposed we will have new information and change our mind on new data.

  People are simply not
> all that lazy or apathetic on their own. They must be isolated and
> made apathetic by constant propaganda/advertising.

If it wasn't for nuclear warfare - suitcase nukes - wtc bombings -
biological warfare - warfare in general - I probably wouldn't really care
- my sense of fear keeps me trying to learn rather than go watch homer
simpson - but there are a lot of people who just want to laugh and will
let the world work itself out and dont care.

> http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/talks/9103-media-control.html
>
> "The people in the public relations industry aren't there for the fun
> of it. They're doing work. They're trying to instill the right values.
> In fact, they have a conception of what democracy ought to be: It
> ought to be a system in which the specialized class is trained to work
> in the service of the masters, the people who own the society. The
> rest of the population ought to be deprived of any form of
> organization, because organization just causes trouble. They ought to

Ron Reagan busted up the Air Traffic Controller strike - should we have
allowed that to happen?

> be sitting alone in front of the TV and having drilled into their
> heads the message, which says, the only value in life is to have more
> commodities or live like that rich middle class family you're watching

Look I am with you, I went to mexico last month and this mexico boy with
200 dollar nikes told me is wife and kid were starving in a shack - I
believe it too - he has bought on to the consumerism - bill cosby said
the blackies will buy 200 dollar nikes but wont walk to the library in
them to read free books. My friend installs corian countertops so that
these women can brag to their socialite buddies about thier new kitchen -
one that never gets used - it is all for show - but it makes that dumb
*** happy and my friend gets another day of pay to feed his kids.

Here is my macro take on that - women are the shopping machines -
mutlicorps market to women cause they will spend like no tomorrow - they
will use CONTROL and OWNERSHIP of that wet stinky hole to get sucker men
to spend on them like NO TOMORROW.

> and to have nice values like harmony and Americanism. That's all there
> is in life. You may think in your own head that there's got to be
> something more in life than this, but since you're watching the tube

A doughnut - some dr pepper and watching homer simpson and I am pretty
happy - why does there have to be more?

> The misinformed market does NOT know best.

Short term goals are taught from birth in the west - china teaches its
kids LONG TERM goals - spanning many generations.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/social/soc_2.htm

World-views also involve a focus on the past, present, or future. Most
North Americans are strongly oriented toward the future. This is
especially true of young adults. Their focus is usually the immediate
foreseeable future of a few years. Most college students are willing to
work toward degrees even though it often means that they must delay
establishing a career, getting married, and having a family. They do
this because they expect a future payoff. That future is most often
viewed as being only a few years away. In contrast, the Chinese
traditionally have focused on several generations in the future. As a
result, people often work hard, sacrificing their lives, so that their
family will be wealthy in their children's or grandchildren's generation.